The death of C&C

[Derrel]

Knowing the intent would be helpful.

 

[weepete]

I have been interested in photography for about 45 years. I am usually fairly well aware of what is right or wrong with a photo, either one taken by me call or one submitted by someone else. I myself do not feel that critique helps all that much. Instead I think that education helps more. If you wish to learn photography come up then bite a few books about photography, and read and study them. For beginners I think that oftentimes critique comes off as empty criticism, unless it is given in a most kid gloves type of fashion, which not that many people do. As in all things, your mileage may vary.

I know where you are coming from on this, but personally speaking I've taken much more out of critique than I have from books, though I have taken quite a lot from a pretty good art education at High School. Some shots I take look great to me, but just don't cut it with the community. Others I don't really rate seem to do well so I have trouble understanding why. Critique helps me understand that from a disspassionate 3rd person. Personally I'm at the stage where I really need the nitpicky critique, so if I know what works or not in post, whither my content is up to scratch. I'm really looking to push myself here and I do kinda miss the days where it kept me on my toes. Only as good as the last job amd that.

 

[weepete]

Other have already covered most of my thoughts in depth but I will at least chime in and say I would like to see more critique beyond the "nice shot". I can probably count on one hand the number of times I've gotten critique even when I asked for it.

As a relative newbie still I'm not always comfortable critiquing someone else's photo. If I like a photo I do try to explain what I like about it. If there are things I don't like about it I usually don't say anything, my bad perhaps. I will check out the tips on critiquing mentioned earlier. And if more people provided constructive criticism we newbies could learn from that and maybe become more comfortable at providing some of our own.

I appreciate that being a newbie makes you a bit apprehensive, been there myself. Personally I think that critique from people who know nothing about photography is just as valid. Indeed the majority of people probably know little about the matter.

If I'm unsure, I phrase it as an opinion and just state it. Like "I feel that my eyes are dawn to the right in this shot but I don't know why". Normally I also try and pick out at least one thing that I like in the shot too.

I'm seriously considering posting a shot I took the other day and trying to critique it myself, though I'm looking at it from a different point of view than everyone else.

 

[Designer]

Personally I'm at the stage where I really need the nitpicky critique, so if I know what works or not in post, whither my content is up to scratch. I'm really looking to push myself here and I do kinda miss the days where it kept me on my toes.

I had no idea. Now that I know what you want, I will watch for your photographs in the future, and see if I can offer anything of value.

 

[charlie76]

I want it.. and i need it..

LOL fantastic!! Simply put, and I totally agree

 

[Derrel]

About 10 years ago, in a post here on TPF. I wrote that, "Many people wish to work in a visual medium but they do not want to learn the visual language." A forum member who is no longer here asked if he could use that quote as part of his sig file. I told him that I thought it would come off as divisive, and condescending and I told him that I did not think he should use it. I think that many people feel that the visual language which Western culture has developed from about 1500 to the 21st century is somehow arbitrary and capricious. There exists quite a long list of compositional and design ideas that many people hold in low regard. As I said there are many people who want to get into photography, but are completely unwilling to study the visual arts and who have no ideas about the elements and principles of design, which are the underlying basis of all of the visual arts. There are many people who take up photography with absolutely no regard for over five centuries' worth of visual art. I have grown tired stepping around these people.

 

[Derrel]

I should probably be honest enough to admit that I also miss reading threads where people receive critical comments and then get bent out of shape. It can be quite entertaining.

Shades of 2012...

 

[Tropicalmemories]

I just recently paid someone to critique some personal work that I have never posted. It was pretty brutal to say the least but very helpful. Funny how the work I thought would get the harshest criticism was met with the least.

Would be very interesting to see some examples of images with the harshest/least feedback ..... and we could give some extra critique for free.

 

[Tropicalmemories]

I want it.. and i need it..

LOL fantastic!! Simply put, and I totally agree

A good example of how some posts can be misread

"...... I totally agree" - that you need more critique or that I need more critique??

Writtem comunication can be a bit one dimensional.

 

[Overread]

Derrel I blame art teachers at school. There's a view that has crept in over the years that art is something you can only be "born with". You have to "have the eye" and if you don't have it you can't learn it. This creates the idea that art is something purely instinctive. It's reinforced by the fact that art is often very poorly taught at schools today; art teachers often don't have the understanding or time to go into the mechanics both in terms of how to mechanically perform artistic tasks (eg how to draw); but also then don't go into the theory of how to create art from the tools. So students are mostly left ot bumble along themselves - those that show talent are fawned over and the rest are secretly hoped to drop the subject at the more advanced years and do other things.

A lot of the latter group might still want to express themselves artistically so they often pick up a camera, but they still have that school reinforced idea that they can't learn art.


Photography doesn't help itself either because so many books (esp at the casual mass market end) focus on only a tiny handful of "rules/theories" like the "rule of thirds". So we again see issues where people who might dip their toes into a book or two quickly learn "all there is to know" in a few moments.



In the end art is a subject that is sorely needing a new fresh wave of teachers and teaching with a big focus on it not being a "natural born skill" and in teaching the very basic mechanics from the ground up.

 

[gk fotografie]

Everyone is making valid points here. We all are interested in making TPF more informative and helpful, especially to novices. Of course, as Smoke touched on, as one gets more skill and is comfortable with their own style, getting feedback may not seem as crucial. But it all has a certain value, which is why no one ever really wants to see it tiptoed around, or dropped completely as too much trouble.

The moderating team is kicking around some scenarios that might be helpful. Please keep the discussion going, and let us know what you would specifically like to see, or NOT like to see, in a Critique forum.

Such as: Information on technical items (Lens, ISO, etc.)?

A statement or specific question from the poster on what they're trying to achieve with their image? (A lot of times, this can guide the viewer as to how to respond.)

The overall intent would be to make a C&C forum as useful to anyone who wants C&C, as well as getting enough information from that member who offers up something for it.

I think a separate forum for criticism of photos will not work, if TPF really wants to move forward and make the forum more attractive to existing and future members, then it's good to take a look at other forums where they work with certain buttons, such as "full critique" - "want pointers" - "just sharing" which every member can click on as needed.

All photos can then simply remain in the correct forums and you'll not get a huge fragmentation. Such an adjustment can be realized within the existing forum of TPF, but does TPF want to make the investment?
Unfortunately TPF isn't known for being innovative, with the effect for years that new members leave the forum after 2 or 3 visits and in the meantime a stream of older members has been initiated who drop out in frustration. Let TPF go through this forum with a big brush, because that is really necessary to get and keep members and visitors in the coming years!

 

[smoke665]

@gk fotografie you hit the nail on the head. The "Our forum software won't allow us to do that " excuse has been used for years. Might be past time for the "big brush" you talk about on several areas.

 

[SquarePeg]

Sometimes you can’t have all that you want in one big sweep. That doesn’t mean that incremental change isn’t helpful.

 

[Space Face]

Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for. Other Forums are not necessarily always a good template to base things on imo.

 

[Tropicalmemories]

Sometimes you need to be careful what you wish for. Other Forums are not necessarily always a good template to base things on imo.

I agree - the other forum referred to has nice software and some active members who provide good critique, but the Victorian-era sensitivity of the heavy-handed moderators were not for me.

It's not easy to find a forum where you feel 'at home'.