The Pact

[manaheim]

^^^ yeah, true enough. I grit my teeth a bit when I wrote that, in fact, but couldn't put my finger on why. Kudos. You nailed it.

I agree with your comments on critque, btw. Nicely written.

 

[JerryPH]

Really, folks, all you have to do is omit heavily loaded words like "horrendous". This, however, has NOTHING to do with TPF and everything to do with how not to piss people off in written communication.

If a picture is "horrendously over exposed", there is a better middle ground. If someone is expecting a CC, they are expecting CC from someone that has something of value to add. That means that the person doing the CC has to have some small level of comprehension or level of understanding in photography (ie: "The Basics). Getting CC from someone that has no experience should be taken with a huge grain of salt, and given with the understanding that they're not quite able to give a higher level of CC.

In the end, the person giving a good CC *should* be able to say things not like "horrendous" or "it sucks" but something like "overexposed by at least 2 stops, maybe a little more. This is a lot in a day and age where we try to get things within a 1/3rd stop or better".

Pact or no pact, you have to make some effort to not be a jerk to people online, you know?

I get mad at some people's obtuseness, and as you see me here, in real life, I am even more direct.

I wasn't brought up in a coddled manner and I don't coddle people face to face and don't expect to be hand held either. I say it how I see it and I never sugar coat things... that stinks of hypocrisy to me and real life is not like that. When you walk into Jiu-Jitsu class, they do not expect to show you what it feels like to be choked to near unconsciousness on a dummy or on someone else, they do it to you so you know what it feels in real life and you deal with it. It's terrifying the first time, but then it becomes common as on average it happens at least 2 times a week.

When offering CC, the person asking for it should be ready to receive a dose of reality whether they like it or not and not cry about it when it is not to their liking... on the other side, the CC doesn't need to be rude, but it can be honest and if a picture sucks, they should not be afraid to say so (avoid the "suck" word, but telling someone this is a poor quality picture for the following 10 reasons and how to make it better), but they'd better be ready to do a fair assesment. To do that means they'd better have some knowledge and understanding of the topic.

I personally do not give CC nor with the exception of ONCE, ever asked for it. My take is that this is my game and I can judge my own shots, and if I do not know how to... I'd better learn. Some people need that help, I don't, it is just a personal choice.

 

[fwellers]

Dead black space with no detail does NOT contribute to photographic impact.

This Week in the Digital Photography School Forum

 

[skieur]

Dead black space with no detail does NOT contribute to photographic impact.

This Week in the Digital Photography School Forum

The three example shots in Digital Photography School Forum above are NOT effective at all and there is not enough detail or exposure to have any visual impact whatsoever. As for the woman, better exposure over all with more of the face and eyes in the shot would considerably improve the photo. The snorkler can hardly even be made out in the small shot.

skieur

 

[blash]

Really, folks, all you have to do is omit heavily loaded words like "horrendous". This, however, has NOTHING to do with TPF and everything to do with how not to piss people off in written communication.

If a picture is "horrendously over exposed", there is a better middle ground. If someone is expecting a CC, they are expecting CC from someone that has something of value to add. That means that the person doing the CC has to have some small level of comprehension or level of understanding in photography (ie: "The Basics). Getting CC from someone that has no experience should be taken with a huge grain of salt, and given with the understanding that they're not quite able to give a higher level of CC.

In the end, the person giving a good CC *should* be able to say things not like "horrendous" or "it sucks" but something like "overexposed by at least 2 stops, maybe a little more. This is a lot in a day and age where we try to get things within a 1/3rd stop or better".

Most people, when looking for C&C these days, aren't going to go back and reshoot the shot though. They're looking for advice on how they can improve their photography for future sets and subjects - in which case, from an internet critique standpoint where many/most users are using a camera in some kind of automatic meter mode (whether it be aperture priority, etc.) and will not benefit from being told, "Your shot is 2 stops too dark". What does that even mean? How should a photographer apply that to a totally different lighting situation?

I think it's better not to deal in numbers but rather in relative terms, i.e. if a photo comes along that has a, yes, 'horrendous' amount of camera shake in it, Starting with, "you used a horrendously long shutter speed in this photo as evidenced by the camera shake," I would rather say "so next time try to use a faster value in shutter-priority mode" than say "so next time, try quartering your shutter speed while widening your aperture by 2 stops."

What's important is not that the entirety of the critique is "Your photo is horrendous!" or "Your photo sucks!" but rather this part of your photo is horrendous and here's how to improve it. Like you said, I'm not one to mince words.

 

[fwellers]

Dead black space with no detail does NOT contribute to photographic impact.

This Week in the Digital Photography School Forum

The three example shots in Digital Photography School Forum above are NOT effective at all and there is not enough detail or exposure to have any visual impact whatsoever. As for the woman, better exposure over all with more of the face and eyes in the shot would considerably improve the photo. The snorkler can hardly even be made out in the small shot.

skieur

So let me just get his right. Are saying that the use of negative space has no positive impact on a photograph ? Or are you just saying that BLACK negative space has positive impact ?

 

[manaheim]

The three example shots in Digital Photography School Forum above are NOT effective at all and there is not enough detail or exposure to have any visual impact whatsoever. As for the woman, better exposure over all with more of the face and eyes in the shot would considerably improve the photo. The snorkler can hardly even be made out in the small shot.

skieur

Seriously? I mean I found one of them to be a bit underexposed for my liking, but I found all of them to be pretty interesting.

Maybe I should post the link to my thread on "What is art?"

 

[manaheim]

by the way, blash, some people DO try to get the shot again... kinda depends on what you shoot.

The kinds of things I take pictures of don't tend to move out of position... ever. So I go back over and over and over again until I feel I have it "right". Obviously you can't always do that.

 

[blash]

by the way, blash, some people DO try to get the shot again... kinda depends on what you shoot.

The kinds of things I take pictures of don't tend to move out of position... ever. So I go back over and over and over again until I feel I have it "right". Obviously you can't always do that.

Some people do , yes, but "most" people don't - and it's usually evident from the shot whether or not it can be reshot, either because it's a snapshot/cityscape or it's a landscape/still life. Personally, I do the vast majority of my shooting outside of the house and it's not convenient at all for me to return to where I shot the photo. Stuff like fireworks photos obviously are rather hard to reshoot, for example (not that you would usually if ever give serious critique to fireworks shots... too unpredictable and loose, but it's a fun path off the beaten road to take when it happens).

 

[Michaelaw]

that 4000 posts thing is eating at you?


No pact should be needed if you just do what is right, and do it with courtesy and respect.

With respect I could pitch this argument to the entire state of the planet

 

[Big]

This is like a bunch of nine year olds playing in a fort. When is the part where you spit in each other's hands and swear to be blood brothers for life? Then some kid named mickey reaches under the mattress and brings out a crumpled magazine full of porn. Somebody yells out freestyle! Then it's all the pacting you can handle.

The forum is fine just as it is. Where else can a noob ask basic questions? This pact is silly.

Personally, I don't think talking trash about what a lot of people on this forum believe in is a way to "fit in". When I signed up to this site, I tried to make a point that I'm a good person and will not cause problems. I want people to respect my questions as I would theirs. I completely respect everyone I have talked to so far as well as people who give me helpful information. This site is my holy grail for photography advice since I have no one who I can admire and learn from in person. I would never ruin my chances for that advice by telling members they suck or giving them crap for trying to help noobies...

 

[farmerj]

that 4000 posts thing is eating at you?


No pact should be needed if you just do what is right, and do it with courtesy and respect.

With respect I could pitch this argument to the entire state of the planet

Pretty much why I don't have "The Pact" in my signature line either..

 

[RJohnston]

Instead of Criticism or telling others what you do not like. Tell them only what you do like or make no comment and realize you do not have to comment about any image.

When you do, give only suggestions about HOW to improve the work. Just saying what you do not like is of no value at all.

Example: I really like the subject you have chosen. You may like it better if you add more contrast. You can do that by going to levels or the histogram and moving the indicators at both ends so they are next to the ends of the histogram. If you want to change the middle tones move the center indicator left or right until it pleases you....

Many read manuals, but get overwhelmed by the amount of instructions.
Getting one direction at a time, focuses them on one change and makes it easier...

 

[PhotoXopher]

For me it's easier/faster to explain what I don't like because it's what stands out the most. Granted, if I see a photo I like I'll say so - but generally I think people want to know what they can improve on.

But yes, it's nice to hear what you're doing right as well.

 

[RJohnston]

This Week in the Digital Photography School Forum

The three example shots in Digital Photography School Forum above are NOT effective at all and there is not enough detail or exposure to have any visual impact whatsoever. As for the woman, better exposure over all with more of the face and eyes in the shot would considerably improve the photo. The snorkler can hardly even be made out in the small shot.

skieur

So let me just get his right. Are saying that the use of negative space has no positive impact on a photograph ? Or are you just saying that BLACK negative space has positive impact ?

IMO BLACK negative space has positive impact if used correctly. In the example of the diver IMO, there is too much space over his head. Cropping it with some space over the head, then makes that image POP, also brings attention to the reflection under his head much more. But if the OP did _not_ wish people to even notice that reflection it was better the way he cropped it.

However improvements in photos are SUBJECTIVE, depending upon what the photographer wants to communicate. Changing something, just to be technically correct does not necessarily improve communication. It can change what is being illustrated totally.

What you like or what I like has little bearing upon the matter. Photography "rules" are made to be broken, just a rules artists in other media follow. Picasso sticking the the rules of the Old Masters, would not have pleased those who bought his paintings. The fact that I don't like his paintings even a little, had no bearing upon how he chose to paint.

As Photographers, it is best if we please ourselves, if others like it that is a bonus.
If we can do what we desire to get the result we want, then we are a success.
Some say my photos are "over-saturated" however, I set my D200 to create more VIVID shots so am accomplishing what I want with stronger colors. Have not adjusted them in Post Processing to increase saturation at all. So technically, they are correct.

If others do not like it, they can choose other photos that they do like...
IF we change it to please those who do not like it, then those who DO like them, will not.