the problem with who owns the photo, i have yet to figure out......

[bribrius]

im not a pro photographer, but a novice for years? Personal enjoyment. I like photography. Consider it a art outlet or escape for me. So if you bare with me. This is a brief story of why I have piles of nudes I have kept (all in good taste not porn) which I spent quite a few years on, unpublished, afraid to be published, if anyone even wanted to publish them I wouldn't know. And unseen and stashed away. A few year span of my life near twenty years ago much beloved by me and perhaps somewhat wasted and of little use.

In my early twenties when I first started novice photography (after taking a brief course) my first enjoyment (probably from being a young male) was nudes of women. which I had multiple models over a few years span. One in particular, I dated during and for about a year period became a huge issue with wanting the photos and negatives of her back. while another one, when asked much later if she wanted the photos of her and negatives said she didn't really care about them. The one I dated after I did photos of her turned into rather a dramatic scene. Out of quite a few models this is the only giant problem I encountered but it became a problem. After I stopped dating her, months after, this one in particular called me and asked me for her photos. which I replied no. They are my photos as all the others in my portfolio at the time.
Another week goes by. Police call me (from a entire different state) apparently prodded by this young womens parents and her. Keep in mind she was in her twenties at the time. The police tell me I have to give her the photos. which I again, refused. The police notify the local city police where I live. Which actually come to my door, and ask me to give this woman the photos and negatives "to avoid problems", which just on principal and pig headedness I think, I again refused. In which they left and suggested apparently she take it up as a civil matter.
Month later, I received a letter from her attorney (or attorney her parents hired?) threatening legal action if I didn't give her the photos.
At this point, I was somewhat amazed, as our brief relationship ended on good terms. She was one of MANY models during a few year period. The photos were taken in good taste. And no other models had been a problem. I was truly perplexed. I ignored the letter from the attorney, only to receive a notice of civil suit. So had to go hire my own attorney (thousand dollars down payment). A month later, my attorney called to notify me they were nolonger proceeding with the potential civil suit and probably because they didn't have grounds and couldnt prove any damages.
Key apparently, is they couldn't prove damages. which led me to being afraid of putting myself in a position where someone could try to prove damages.

But all this, over previously agreed upon shoots.
I have never posted, tried to publish, or even showed any work from these years. As I always had some fear of a claim of damages and proceeding lawsuit. And soon afterward because of this probably nolonger had such a interest in nude portraits.
Thoughts?
what would happen if I did anything with these photos from back then?

 

[tirediron]

In short: Who knows? There's only one way to find out. This is however a classic example of why you should always, always, ALWAYS have a signed consent & model release even if you don't ever plan on doing anything with them. Even though the models likely couldn't achieve anything in the courts, if they have deep enough pockets, they could drag things out to the point where you're bankrupt... the verbal agreements you had with the models, while binding are worth exactly the paper they are printed on.

 

[bribrius]

In short: Who knows? There's only one way to find out. This is however a classic example of why you should always, always, ALWAYS have a signed consent & model release even if you don't ever plan on doing anything with them. Even though the models likely couldn't achieve anything in the courts, if they have deep enough pockets, they could drag things out to the point where you're bankrupt... the verbal agreements you had with the models, while binding are worth exactly the paper they are printed on.

would you happen to have a copy of a good one for me to use for future reference?

 

[bribrius]

you hit the nail on the head too by the way. I think that is my fear. Not so much losing in court, but being driven bankrupt just by being sued to such a extent...
call it paranoia, or paranoia with cause. It really takes away your freedom when you have potential legal ramifications on your mind...

taking pictures of things that cant sue you became much more appealing...

 

[KmH]

what would happen if I did anything with these photos from back then?

That depends on how you use them.
An online photography forum is not a good place to be seeking legal advice.

Though your profile does not include any location info, some of what you posted leads me to believe you are in the USA. In that case US federal law applies to photograph ownership.
There is no doubt, you own the copyrights to the photographs, which is why the girl had no legal traction for demanding you turn your photographs over to her. U.S. Copyright Office
That her parents were able to get the police in 2 different jurisdictions to pressure you though the police had no legal basis for doing so indicates her parents have some connections.

You generally do not need a person's permission to use their likeness in an editorial use.
You do need their permission to use their likeness for a commercial use, if the photographs were made in private, or if the photographs were made in controlled conditions in a public setting.

Selling photographic prints as art is an editorial use, as long as the prints are not mass produced and not widely distributed.

Put another way, what counts is the legal definitions of editorial usage and commercial usage, not the layman's definitions of editorial use and commercial use.
Further complicating answering your question is that while copyright is US Federal law and the same in every state, model release law is state law - so there are 50 somewhat different version of model release law in the USA. You would want a model release that is valid in your state. https://contribute.gettyimages.com/producer/documents/Model_Release_English_Dec_2008.pdf


You would be well advised to consult with a qualified attorney before you venture beyond your personal use of the photographs.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Depends on the usage; typically for editorial use you may not need releases but it might be requested by the newspaper/magazine; for retail or commercial use typically photographers get releases (that indicate that the subject has given you permission to make money from their images).

The women that modeled when they were in their 20's may not have cared at the time, probably none of you were thinking ahead to a time when it might be a problem for them later in life to have nude photos surface.

There's info. on professional photographers websites like American Society of Media Photographers . I don't know about making releases retroactive for photos you took for example 10 years ago but you probably need to research this and start getting releases signed from now on.

 

[tirediron]

In short: Who knows? There's only one way to find out. This is however a classic example of why you should always, always, ALWAYS have a signed consent & model release even if you don't ever plan on doing anything with them. Even though the models likely couldn't achieve anything in the courts, if they have deep enough pockets, they could drag things out to the point where you're bankrupt... the verbal agreements you had with the models, while binding are worth exactly the paper they are printed on.

would you happen to have a copy of a good one for me to use for future reference?

I would strongly recommend that you research what is appropriate in your region. I assume you're in the USA, and while both our legal systems share the roots of British Common Law, things do vary by country, state and region, and spending a couple of hundred dollars to have a lawyer put together a binding document would be WELL worth the money.

 

[bribrius]

what would happen if I did anything with these photos from back then?

That depends on how you use them.
An online photography forum is not a good place to be seeking legal advice.

Though your profile does not include any location info, some of what you posted leads me to believe you are in the USA. In that case US federal law applies to photograph ownership.
There is no doubt, you own the copyrights to the photographs, which is why the girl had no legal traction for demanding you turn your photographs over to her. U.S. Copyright Office
That her parents were able to get the police in 2 different jurisdictions to pressure you though the police had no legal basis for doing so indicates her parents have some connections.

You generally do not need a person's permission to use their likeness in an editorial use.
You do need their permission to use their likeness for a commercial use, if the photographs were made in private, or if the photographs were made in controlled conditions in a public setting.

Selling photographic prints as art is an editorial use, as long as the prints are not mass produced and not widely distributed.

Put another way, what counts is the legal definitions of editorial usage and commercial usage, not the layman's definitions of editorial use and commercial use.
Further complicating answering your question is that while copyright is US Federal law and the same in every state, model release law is state law - so there are 50 somewhat different version of model release law in the USA. You would want a model release that is valid in your state. https://contribute.gettyimages.com/producer/documents/Model_Release_English_Dec_2008.pdf


You would be well advised to consult with a qualified attorney before you venture beyond your personal use of the photographs.

yes. I am currently in the state of maine. The photos in question were taken in (if I recall all of them) mass, newhampshire, maine, Nevada, north Carolina.. basically multiple states as I wasn't very stationary at the time and many were taken on travel. And I probably should seek legal counsel I suppose I just am trying to avoid the associated costs.

 

[bribrius]

Depends on the usage; typically for editorial use you may not need releases but it might be requested by the newspaper/magazine; for retail or commercial use typically photographers get releases (that indicate that the subject has given you permission to make money from their images).

The women that modeled when they were in their 20's may not have cared at the time, probably none of you were thinking ahead to a time when it might be a problem for them later in life to have nude photos surface.

There's info. on professional photographers websites like American Society of Media Photographers . I don't know about making releases retroactive for photos you took for example 10 years ago but you probably need to research this and start getting releases signed from now on.

Concerning rectroactive, I only know of "approximately" where two of the models currently are. which I think I could track down with some work albeit they are in different states. One for instance I found through facebook but that is the only way I know of to contact her. And she would no doubt refuse to sign a release at this point in her life. The others, I haven't any idea where they are.

 

[bribrius]

Im really not trying to be a jerk about this either. As I think the majority of the problem with the case in question and attempted civil suit was the womans ATTTITUDE and her families threats that made me resist.

I had another woman earnestly ask me to dispose of the work of her quite a bit after the fact of her shoot. which I burned it right in front of her to give her a peace of mind. I just sat with her, had a conversation and lit a camp fire and we talked while I through it in. I didn't like throwing my work away but I am not out to upset anyone. And I wanted her to realize I wasn't out to "get " anyone this was a voluntary basis. I offered to dispose of anothers which she replied she wasn't concerned about it do as I may when it came up in a after the time discussion. I think, the more threats I received from the one in particular I explained above though and the attempted civil suit police involvment, the more upset I became about it and the more I resisted.
If she simply asked me in earnest, nicely, without threats. I probably would have just gave them to her. Like most people I think, we get into photography because we enjoy it. We aren't out to hurt anybody.

I probably will just forget all about it again. seems the easiest thing.

 

[Aakajx]

Was it recent this woman wanted her photos or are you talking about years ago?

If your not doing anything with the photos give her a copy of them to shut her up. I wouldn't want the stress of it.

 

[imagemaker46]

To be honest, and I understand copyright and everything that it means, but is all this stress even worth the price of keeping the photos that you may never use? Life is just too short to waste anymore time dealing with this. Burn them as well, record it and give her the ashes of her past in a box.

 

[Steve5D]

I don't understand why this is such an issue. This response would've saved you a lot of heart burn:

"I'm sorry, but I threw those photos and negatives out years ago".

And get on with your day. There's absolutely nothing that can be done, on their part, to further compel you to do anything.

They would have to prove the following:

1) that you really took the photos (it may well be her word against yours)

AND

2) that you didn't destroy/discard the photos (you would not have to prove that you did)


I hear about this type of stuff every so often, and it amazes me. Tell her attorney to piss off. Tell the parents to piss off. Tell the girl to piss off.

I can understand being concerned that, all of a sudden, the police are knocking on your door. But you've done nothing wrong and, at the very least, your local police know that. If they thought otherwise, they wouldn't have suggested that as a reason for turning them over.

Seriously, have a Coke and a smile and don't worry about this...