The wrong way. Learn the fundamentals.

[TheGreatGonzo]

You don't even care that they don't yet have all the tools they're going to need because you're going to give them those tools in your upcoming lecture.

Fortunately there seems to be no shortage of tools here on the forum.

I have my own method and it's the only one I've found that is proven to correct this behavior utilizing a punishment/reward training system. Punishment - If you miss your exposure by more than 1/2 stop someone rips off one of their toe nails. Reward - If they nail the exposure then they get to punish the next student. No matter the subject it seems to get people's attention and align priorities quickly.

This method was not covered in Understanding Exposure!!!!

One of the best hitters in baseball, Ichiro, has a horrible batting stance to most purists. They kept telling him that he needed to have his swing be fundamentally sound and coaches tried to change his approach to the plate at every level. He didn't because his swing works for him, and he'll likely be inducted into the Hall of Fame.

Sure...but can he take a decent photograph?

 

[KmH]

Photography shouldn't be taught, it should be explored.

Photography absolutely should be taught. Good teachers foster and guide exploration, bad teachers expect rote (my way, or the highway). Most that have no teacher, founder.

You could ruin a potentially incredible photographer by teaching them the fundamentals.

I don't think so. I've seen it work the opposite way, many times.

Most photogrphers that have raw, inate talent, flourish even more when they begin to understand how the tools they have work (the fundamentals). Understanding the fundamentals, particularly the technical fundamentals opens up possibilities they weren't able to image before gaining that level of fundamental understanding.

 

[Stutterfly]

This discussion is just cementing what I've been thinking about ever since I started this photography thing - there needs to be a 'Photography Apprenticeship' ! Like many trades, it would be really helpful if there was a good mix of the technical side (which here in Australia you'd do at TAFE) and also on-the-job training and mentoring.

 

[Overread]

This discussion is just cementing what I've been thinking about ever since I started this photography thing - there needs to be a 'Photography Apprenticeship' ! Like many trades, it would be really helpful if there was a good mix of the technical side (which here in Australia you'd do at TAFE) and also on-the-job training and mentoring.

You mean a bit like this:
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/beyond-basics/125099-official-mentors-bio-list.html

 

[molested_cow]

Do you enjoy what you are doing? If not, then what's the point being all technical?

To me, with any thing, enjoyment is the most important thing, because enjoyment leads to sustained interest, which leads to the motivation to know more. When you have that drive, your desire for technical knowledge becomes more specific and learning is therefore more effective. If someone who doesn't know much about photography, hasn't really taken many photos that he has put effort in trying to make it meaningful comes to me and says,"Teach me everything I need to know", well, I will just tell him to go take more photos because I want him to instead come to me and ask "I've been trying to do this but for some reason it isn't working....". Now, there is a intention that I can start with. To me, it's not about trying to get the most perfectly exposed or composed photograph that they need to learn. They need to know what they are trying to achieve first.

People talk about the 1/3 rule and what not. 4+2 years of art and design education tells me to throw all rules out of the door because rules become bottleneck. If you take rules literally, you will just be blindly following it and lose sight of you personal intention on why you are taking a shot. Photography is a form of expression. Express YOURSELF. If I want to know about rules I can just read up in them on wiki.

When some one asks me for cc, I always try to address it from the stand point of the "intention". Why did you take this photo and what message are you trying to convey? From there, I give my advice based on these intentions. I don't just blindly say "Oh man, you need to flood the scene with strobe and flash cus I can't see a damn thing..." when perhaps, his intention is to create a mood that is complimented by deliberate lack of details, and just need to use a different approach. It's subjective. All the so called "fundamentals" are just a part of the tools that help us get to where we want to go. So it's more important to know where before how.

 

[Stutterfly]

Overread; Yes but I meant an official thing, and in person...hehe.

(had a quick read through and couldn't find a single 'Mentor' interested in live music/concerts <- my area of interest)

Imagine, a 1 or 2 year course in which you learn all the fundamentals AND follow a pro around learning the reality of the job (in whichever specific field of photography you choose) sounds wonderful to me.

 

[Overread]

Give Erose a pestering View Profile: e.rose - Photography Forum & Digital Photography Forum
I think many of her old posts got nuked accidentally, but she is into the live music type scene and can certainly give some pointers in that field as a place to start (and probably has some good links/contacts for further info).

As for official and in person I do very much agree - the problem is not only finding someone with the skills and teaching ability, but affording it as well. (though I suspect live concert music has a few more pro shooters doing such than wildlife where most is aimed at "weekend warrior" courses - ie short tasters and guides. )

 

[PASM]

People talk about the 1/3 rule and what not. 4+2 years of art and design education tells me to throw all rules out of the door because rules become bottleneck.

There's somethng important within that. Let's not lose sight of the point though that this thread is about the novice. However, to innovate, you need to understand the fundamentals. Picasso was a capable draughtsmen before he decided to ditch the rules. The difference between a novice shooting photos from the hip, on the street and an experienced (competent) camera operator would be noticeable, looking at the results.

 

[burgo]

I don't disagree that learning the fundamentals is important. Learning is a life long habit and in truth once you learn the fundamentals then you need to move onto more advanced stuff. I agree with Derrel that sometimes people do post questions that could be answered if they took the time to read their instruction books or do a bit of research. But the internet makes some people lazy and forums like this will always attract people who will ask dumb questions just because they can't be bothered finding the answer for themselves.

I think we all start out just taking photos on our point & shoots or Instant cameras as they were called when I was a lad. The digital era means that those beginners can now post their images and ask "What am I doing wrong?" For those who care it starts a life long journey of learning how to take photos properly. For those who don't care they end up with albums full of Ok snaps that they are happy with.

The truth is the prevalence of cheap high end digital cameras has not improved photography in general. In my opinion the quality of photography has dropped due to digital cameras because people will take photos with less care now because they think if it turns out bad I can just delete it. In the old days of film based instant cameras you tended to try and take some care in how you shot your images as it cost you to get films developed and you had only a limited number of shots you could take anyway so you chose carefully.

My theory is that most people follow a path like this:
take snaps of families, holidays etc and are disppointed by the quality of the images.....think that if they buy a better camera it will solve this.....after they purchase the new camera find they get some good images but the rest still look average......realise they need to learn more because this camera has so many dials and options they don't know what to do with them.......buy a book or start researching on the internet........start applying some basic principles and notice a marked improvement in their images.....the amateur photographer is born

 

[skieur]

I think the OP is somewhat arrogant in his assumptions about beginner photographers. A common pitfall of forums, especially this one. Learning the fundamentals and taking photos as practice go hand in hand. One reinforces the other.

The OP is not arrogant at all and accurate in his assumptions. It shows up when beginners are asking for CC on portraits, that demonstrate that they have read absolutely nothing about the fundamentals of taking pictures of people. It shows up when beginners take landscape photos with NO centre of interest whatsoever, which indicates that they have read nothing about the fundamentals of composition. It shows up when photos are posted with no detail at all in shadow areas which indicates that they have read nothing about basic postprocessing.

The list goes on, and so does the evidence that the OP is correct in his assumptions.

skieur

 

[pgriz]

Not sure why there's even an arguement. "Fundamentals" means knowing the structure of the craft, how things connect to each other and how you can use these to achieve your goal (artistic or otherwise). It is possible to take good pictures without knowing fundamentals, it is much more a hit-and-miss thing, since this approach has no structure to allow refinement and repetition. There are fundamentals to photography, to water-colour painting, to wood-carving, to engraving, to skiing, to playing golf... the list goes on. Each activity CAN be enjoyed without structure, but each activity is much more satisfying when you can use the knowledge of fundamentals to achieve high levels of performance reliably. Even in team sports, the ones that win consistently are the ones that have both good players, and a very good grasp of fundamentals.

As for learning styles, there are at least four that I am aware of: 1) the experimental learner, the auditory learner, the tactile learner and the procedural learner. The first dives in without opening the manual and tries a hundred things to construct a mental map of what works and how. The auditory learner needs to hear instructions to be able to follow. The tactile learner needs to "feel" the new activity to learn it, and benefits by watching others do something that they can copy. The procedural learner is more visual than the auditory learner, but again, relies on following a written procedure or process. We usually combine all of these methods in learning something new, but we tend to rely on one method more than the others. Procedural learners find the theory easier to pick up than the other type of learners, but in the end, all need to know these fundamentals to construct their mental maps of how that activity works.

Addendum... an analogy to learning the fundamentals is the act of exploring a new city. Some will just go in and wander around, "discovering" things and taking pleasure in such discoveries. Others will buy a good guidebook and read up about the lay of the land, the locations of the various items of interest, an insight into the history and culture of the place, and have a sense of where to go and where NOT to go... I've done both, and the second gives a much better set of memories. It takes a lot of knowledge to appreciate what you're looking at or what cultural event you are experiencing. However, once you've got the fundamental mental map in place, then absolutely go and experiment and try new things - but now you have a context and a structure so that you're not wasting time doing low-value things.

 

[sanpan]

I tend to agree with the OP. I am yet to lay hands on my own DSLR but I have joined the forum for the past few months and have been surfing the net. I want to be familiar with the fundamentals and the terminology before I use the DSLR (which I hope will be with me end of April). In the meantime, I am trying out some concepts on my Canon S3 IS. I want to make sure whatever I practice, I do it perfectly. No point practicing wrongly and getting into bad habits. Thats what my cricket coach told me.

Adding further, there are two aspects to photography 1. The art, and, 2. The technique. Learn the technique, practice it. Its up to the photographer to do that. The art cannot be taught. Either you have it or you don't. But both art and technique are needed to be a good photographer. Its just like learning to play a guitar.

 

[burgo]

I think the OP is somewhat arrogant in his assumptions about beginner photographers. A common pitfall of forums, especially this one. Learning the fundamentals and taking photos as practice go hand in hand. One reinforces the other.

The OP is not arrogant at all and accurate in his assumptions. It shows up when beginners are asking for CC on portraits, that demonstrate that they have read absolutely nothing about the fundamentals of taking pictures of people. It shows up when beginners take landscape photos with NO centre of interest whatsoever, which indicates that they have read nothing about the fundamentals of composition. It shows up when photos are posted with no detail at all in shadow areas which indicates that they have read nothing about basic postprocessing.

The list goes on, and so does the evidence that the OP is correct in his assumptions.

skieur

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I think the OP was being very arrogant, elitist I would add as well. But that is just my opinion too. We all started somewhere and I can bet that with 99.9999% of photographers it wasn't with opening a book to learn the fundamentals, it was with taking pictures.

But when someone whom I am assuming is a Pro Photog starts bemoaning enthusiastic amateurs on a Photography forum, then that comes across as being a bit up yourself. A tad narcissistic. Know what I mean?

 

[bentcountershaft]

I can see thinking KMH is being arrogant in the post if you don't know him. However, I've only been here for less than two years but for all of that time and I'm sure well before he has been among the small group of experienced pros here that show infinitie patience trying to teach us noobs how to get better.

 

[bennielou]

You know, I think people need to shoot from their heart FIRST. If you don't have an eye, a love for photography, a gift, all the photoshop, F stops, cameras in the world won't help you.
I'm a full time photographer now and have been for many years, but I started out here on this very forum. I took photos of plants in my yard with my 20D and I was ripped for not being good enough. Some people told me how to imporove and I listened.

I'm one of those people that photographers call "dial spinners". I'm not a technical person. I just spin the dials until I get the photo I want. People have been paying me for years for the emotions I catch. They woulnd't know the first thing about the rule of thirds. But I've also been hired to give seminars on lighting and other technical matters which I always find pretty funny because I know less than anyone. I have a general idea, and I spin the dials around until it looks right to me. They don't want me to give seminars on lighting, because I suck at that. They want to know how to capture emotion.

Because my dial spinning worked, I now have people that work with me that are super sharp on everything technical. I couldn't tell you a thing about lighting. I can write a book on getting moments.

What I say, is if you are good at getting the shot, being artistic, having the right equipment to do the job, you can work around the other stuff. Photographers aren't hiring you. Real people are.