Utopia of Critique Forum

[elsaspet]

I'd love to see it stickied. I think everyone here has a stake in this.

 

[elsaspet]

Maybe our wonderful list man, Smcaskil, could try to put out a list of all the various ideas, and the components of each.
I know that's asking alot, but he seems to have a great aptitude for it.
I'll PM him and see if he wouldn't mind helping us out with that Peanut.

 

[Chiller]

Hmmm ... if there will be a resolution, even i might post images or even critique in a critique section again (not that i ever posted alot anyway)

I think this thread shows there is some constructive thoughts.

Same here. One reason I dont post, or did not in the past, was the cocky attitude of the people doin the critique. But that was another thread. I think we have gone past that, and now might be on the way to a resolution
I agree with COA...that the techy side of it has to be addressed as well. If we knew what was possible, before we keep carrying on. It would be a shame to come up with something that might work, only to have it shot down for tech reasons.

Another thing..that popped into my head.... Once a final draft is done...hopefully we get to that point. Do ya think we should have a poll. I know it might be complicated...but...the draft could be placed with a sticky for everyone to read. A simple Yes, or No. It might avoid people saying..."I didnt see it"

Another outloud thought.

 

[Chiller]

Maybe our wonderful list man, Smcaskil, could try to put out a list of all the various ideas, and the components of each.
I know that's asking alot, but he seems to have a great aptitude for it.
I'll PM him and see if he wouldn't mind helping us out with that Peanut.

I wanna get him workin at our company. They are as organized as bear cubs playing with footballs when it comes to documenting thing here. :er:

Smcaskil....well done tho. The lists are impressive, and for someone like me, who is a lazy reader, it really helps. thanks for taking the time.

 

[Antarctican]

If you have any ideas, please share them.

I really don't have much to add to what I understand will be the idea behind the new critique forum. You've addressed the matter of crit not being just 'harsh criticism' but rather constructive comments addressing what was wrong as well as what was right and giving some advice/suggestions for improvement. It will be up to the critiquers to make that concept a reality. And I'm not saying they have to pull their punches, just phrase the crit in a constructive, non soul destroying way.

I like the suggestion that it be geared to the skill level of the poster. That's virtually a necessity. It's been suggested that the poster be anonymous, but I personally think it will just delay/complicate things to put in place a procedure to keep them anonymous. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other, so whichever method is quicker and easier (ie anon or not) should be used.

I think there will be a lot of interest in the new critique forum, so at least initially there will have to be a restriction on how many pics one can submit (ie one a week/month/whatever). That's been addressed already. If the amount of submissions drops off over time, the restriction can maybe be lifted.

As to whether there are one or more persons critiquing each pic, I don't particularly have strong feelings one way or another. It would of course be great to get the views of more than one person, if possible, but depending on the workload on the crit-givers, it may not be possible.

The suggestion that the critiquers be voted on every 3 months or so is good in concept, as long as there's a pool of people with the necessary skills (to give good crit) who are willing to give of their time to do this. I understand under the current proposal one can sit for no more than 3 voting periods before having to leave. Presumably they only have to leave for one voting period, and can then be voted back on? (I haven't seen that addressed, or I missed it) ...And although voting on the critiquers is a wonderful concept, there's a lot of apathy when it comes to voting, as demonstrated by the difficulty getting large numbers of people to vote on the PotM and Photo Challenges. But that's something that can be revisited if and when the time comes that there's a problem with the voting procedure or getting sufficient numbers of appropriate critiquers involved.

So all that is a very long way of saying I think you're all on the right track and I don't have a lot to add. Until it comes time to setting up the panel....

 

[Hertz van Rental]

Here is a very simple structure for a Beginner’s Crit Forum.
I’ve kept it very simple for a number of reasons:
Ease of use.
Easy to run.
Minimal effort – I’ve also spread the workload as you will see, which should put less of a strain on people.
Transparency.
Less to go wrong.

To keep it as simple as possible I’ve done away with elections. These are problematic and time consuming. But I’ve built in some fail-safes to stop it being misused or dominated.



Panel members are volunteers and volunteer themselves. To qualify they must provide a brief CV and a statement as to why they think they can give a good crit.
Providing volunteers are suitable they go into the pool without vetting.
(A vetting procedure of some kind – members veto/voting/whatever – could be installed at a later date if needed).
Optimum size for the pool is 12 to 15.
Crits are done by a panel of 3, each member being selected from a pool by the forum Mod using a random process (names in a hat/dice/etc).
Images to be considered for crit are submitted by the member whose image it is. By PM they request a crit giving a link to where they have posted it, EXIF/exposure and other relevant details, what they were trying to do, what help they need and why.
No submission will be accepted without this info.
Only one submission per week per member.
(A special PM box/account just for submissions could be opened. Once a member has made a submission he is added to the ignore list so he can’t submit more. If he has submitted a bunch before this is done only the first is accepted. When the inbox is full or the deadline for submissions reached then that week is closed and the images selected for having a crit.
The selection is done at random (names out of a hat/dice/etc) in the same way as the panel and at the same time. An image is drawn and three panel members drawn.
Doing it this way no-one can control what gets a crit or who does it.
With a pool of 15 then 5 images a week can receive a crit and each member only has to do one crit.
10 images and the panel still only has to do 2 per week. A light work-load gives more time for thought.
The panel each receive their image with info – but it is anonymous.
Likewise they are anonymous.
They have a week to do their crits which are then submitted to the Mod who then posts each pic with it’s three crits.
If a panel member misses two consecutive deadlines they are dropped from the pool.

The forum is locked so no comments can be posted. Information stickies and the crits themselves are all it contains.
There are two sub-forums.
One is an archive where all crit posts go when the next bunch is posted.
The other is for members to post questions and get answers, and to discuss the crits or any problems.

As it stands it is very simple and means the least amount of tinkering with the Board. No flags, polls or anything else.
Being simple it is largely foolproof providing everyone does their job. The Mod has the most work but it is not that much if they are organised.

What do you think?

 

[Peanuts]

Looks good to me!

 

[elsaspet]

I wanna get him workin at our company. They are as organized as bear cubs playing with footballs when it comes to documenting thing here. :er:

Smcaskil....well done tho. The lists are impressive, and for someone like me, who is a lazy reader, it really helps. thanks for taking the time.

He's working on it right now. He's consolidating all the ideas, and each possible component of each idea in an easy to read format.
Needlessly to say, that might take a nanosecond or two......:mrgreen:

 

[Hertz van Rental]

He's working on it right now. He's consolidating all the ideas, and each possible component of each idea in an easy to read format.
Needlessly to say, that might take a nanosecond or two......:mrgreen:

Read faster, damn you!

 

[elsaspet]

If you check into the wedding forum, you will see that I am dealing with an.....issue.....at the moment.
Only two hands Papa Bear!

 

[Antarctican]

What do you think?

I like it for its simplicity.

Quick question: There will be 12-15 critiquers at the outset. Are they 'appointed for life' (unless they withdraw or are replaced for having missed deadlines)? Any other proposed method for getting some occasional 'new blood' on the panel?

 

[smcaskil]

OK,

I went back and grabbed the original list that I made up what we needed to work on. I then went back through the various posts, picking up the ideas from members regarding each section of the list. These have been combined here. If I left something out, it was not intentional, just let me know and I will edit the post to include it.

1. Forum and Design

Option #1

We have 1, 2, possibly 3 folks who have Moderator rights on the Critique Forum.

The posts stay hidden until 3 critiques are written on the post.

Once a post has 3 critiques, one of these three folks edit them into one single post, delete the originals and then approve the post. It can then be seen by the public. But no one will have seen who the original author of the critiques are, just that there are three of them.

This would let there be multiple folks responsible so someone does not feel as though they have to babysit this one forum all the time. The members of the Critique Board can select the submitted posts to which they have the most expertise, namely if they have been wedding photographers for 10 years, they can offer their critique on those types of pictures first. Once a picture gets 3 critiques, they are combined and published.

The one problem with this method is that some submissions may get stuck in limbo waiting for that elusive 3rd critique, so it might be necessary to have something in place to say if you see a post that has 2 already, write that critique first, so a group of submissions don't lanquish in the queue.

This is just one of several ideas that have been brought forth on the organization of the forums.

Option #2

If a member wants his pictures to have a crit there could be a 'please crit' flag like the OTE flag.

A 'panel' of say three people do the crits. The panel members are voted for by all members and re-elections take place at regular intervals. Panel members can do no more than three sessions in a row before they must step down. A system like this stops any one member dominating the panel, unpopular or useless panel members won't outstay their welcome and the rank and file will see it as their panel.

A workable number of images are selected by the panel each week and are given crits. In order to be considered for selection an image must be accompanied by a short explanation of what the person wants help with and why (sound familiar? But it worked!). Crits are two way things so if the originator is not prepared to do some work they shouldn't expect anyone else to put in work either. Images without a reasonable exposition will not be considered.

The panel should try to select images that cover common problems. Say you have a dozen images for crit and they all have the same basic problem. Doing a crit on one will be relevant to all the others and will save a lot of repeat work. The crit section would also become a good learning resource where people can find answers to common problems. And it will also be a good example to others on how to do a crit.

If it is organised properly it will largely run itself. And once you have it working a similar structure can be used for more advanced crits.

General crits can still be done in the various galleries as they are now so there will be no loss of service at the expense of a new one.

The crits themselves could be individual freestyle - but suggest that all three (?) panel members crit each one so no-one comes away thinking they got chosen by the 'crap' panel member. It's bound to happen. Each panel member should crit it 'blind' though - not seeing what the others wrote until it's posted.

Which raises the possibility of a seperate Mod who actually organises it all and the panel members just make the selection and write the crits. Would get rid of the need to make the ever-changing panel all Mods.

Some other thoughts on rules / ideas for the forum:

1. The panel give their feeback plus possible help and thats it THE END

2. The poster does not reply again



2. Set of rules for submissions

1. Once monthy submission limits

2. Anonymous

3. Include the skill set (I say this needs to be a list if possible, so folks can't just put garbage in there that makes no sense and so we have clear definitions.)
a. Professional (Either trained or being paid for photography)
b. Pro-Am (You have done a few small shoots, possibly for free, but still are more amateur at the moment)
c. Amateur / Hobbist
d. New Photographer

4. Specific critique requests. Something along the line of 'I'd like to know how I could have posed this person differently to account for the lack of space.' This won't limit the kind of critique they receive, but will make sure if they have a specific question, it is answered if possible.

5. Information on what they were trying to convey from the photograph or why / for whom they took the picture. This means things like, 'I wanted it to look slighly out of focus to give it a more fill in the blank look.' That way they don't get a critique about something they meant to "do wrong." This would also include Hertz's ideas of Reason and What you were trying to do.

6. The OKE / Not OKE is a good idea. Sometimes it is great to see what someone else could have done in editing. The one problem I see is that many folks, especially new photogrpahers, don't have the software required to do the edits, so you need to still include a critique, not just 'here's how I fixed your picture.'

7. EXIF Data or details if using film

8. Type of equipment, especially lighting used
​

4. OTE or no OTE, depending on what the poster is looking for, and provided details of any edits are well spelled out.


3. Critique Board Members


4. How Board Members are Selected and How Often

There are really only three ways to select a panel:

1) Members nominate candidates and then everyone votes. The three with the most votes become the panel.

Disadvantages: This system is open to abuse, both in the nomination phase and the voting phase. Additionally a lot of people don't know who the hell anyone is around here so 'good' people might not get nominated or they may be too few nominations. And then there is voter apathy.
On top of it all it's a heck of a lot of work.

2) Members put themselves up for nomination and the members vote.

Disadvantages are the same as for (1).

3) Members say they are interested in doing it. The list is posted and members have the opportunity to vet, speaking out if they think anyone unsuitable is there. If there are enough valid objections against someone (2? 3?) that person is removed from the list.

The remaining names are put into a hat and three drawn at random.

I (HvR) favor this last one as it is the easiest and simplest to implement.
​

Other possible ideas regarding the selection of the Critique Board are:

1. Anyone interested MUST have work posted somewhere on this forum.

2. There are limits set on how long a juror serves, possibly monthly or quarterly.
​

I think this covers everything that we have worked out / discussed so far. I know Abraxas had wanted to change the order of the original list to a 4, 1, 2, and then 3 order. The only reason I did not change that is because it seems easier to read in this order. We can put the information in any order and can work on it in different sequence if folks believe something should be of higher priority. My list was just something to get the ball rolling.

 

[smcaskil]

I wanna get him workin at our company.

I am looking for a job, is that an offer?

 

[elsaspet]

I think you covered all the angles we came up with. Now it comes down to polls or what? I want this to be something that the whole forum can pretty much agree with.


As long as they are under my spell....boooohooooaaaaahhhhhh! (For you Chiller)

 

[Chiller]

I am looking for a job, is that an offer?

Holy moly...y'all are way down yonder in the US of eh. After seeing that amazing list work, our company are cheap arses, and would never pay for work like that.
Well done man. Good luck on finding work.