What does 'hi' means?

[EchoingWhisper]

Echoing Whisper is about 3 seconds from my ignore list because I'm sick of him arguing moot points to death. WHO GIVES A FLYING F$#& about this, when in real world shooting it isn't applicable?!

You just can't argue with me. I don't want to argue with you. You are right in places, but please read the links, they are some discussion from some people and you'll understand what I said. I wasn't being rude at all.

You're right you aren't being rude. There is just NO point in arguing this since it's not something that is going to affect day to day photography. The fact remains that with EVERY dslr currently on the market, the best technique is to expose properly by using the lowest possible ISO in camera. If that happens to be 6400 so be it, because the noise coming out of camera is less than what would be produced by upping the exposure.

New question: How do I choose an aperture/SS combo if I'm shooting ISO'less. Say I'm shooting basketball in a poorly lit gym. Do I just decide that hey, I want a deep DOF to make sure the player is in focus, I'll shoot at 5.6. And then hey, I wanna freeze action COMPLETELY, so let's just shoot everything at 1/8000th to make sure it's frozen. I can go back to my computer and fix this black frame later!

To me, iso is still a part of exposure, even technically, because without it, you cannot calculate what a proper SS/Aperture combo even is.

How do you choose a Aperture/Shutter speed combo? Good question. It's the same as normal exposure - only you don't need to worry about your image being a black hole. Just set the aperture so that you get reasonable depth of field, and set the shutter speed so that there is little motion blur. Determine the brightness later. And in ISOless sensors, ETTR still apply, you want to get as much light as possible to get as many information as possible before blowing the highlights so that you get the least noise and the least banding. And to prevent you detail being covered by noise, you should also check your read noise and see how much light your sensor should be getting before details get hidden by noise.

Noise coming out of the camera with an ISOless sensor is the same as upping the exposure later - if there is sufficient bit and/or dithering.

 

[Destin]

You just can't argue with me. I don't want to argue with you. You are right in places, but please read the links, they are some discussion from some people and you'll understand what I said. I wasn't being rude at all.

You're right you aren't being rude. There is just NO point in arguing this since it's not something that is going to affect day to day photography. The fact remains that with EVERY dslr currently on the market, the best technique is to expose properly by using the lowest possible ISO in camera. If that happens to be 6400 so be it, because the noise coming out of camera is less than what would be produced by upping the exposure.

New question: How do I choose an aperture/SS combo if I'm shooting ISO'less. Say I'm shooting basketball in a poorly lit gym. Do I just decide that hey, I want a deep DOF to make sure the player is in focus, I'll shoot at 5.6. And then hey, I wanna freeze action COMPLETELY, so let's just shoot everything at 1/8000th to make sure it's frozen. I can go back to my computer and fix this black frame later!

To me, iso is still a part of exposure, even technically, because without it, you cannot calculate what a proper SS/Aperture combo even is.

How do you choose a Aperture/Shutter speed combo? Good question. It's the same as normal exposure - only you don't need to worry about your image being a black hole. Just set the aperture so that you get reasonable depth of field, and set the shutter speed so that there is little motion blur. Determine the brightness later. And in ISOless sensors, ETTR still apply, you want to get as much light as possible to get as many information as possible before blowing the highlights so that you get the least noise and the least banding. And to prevent you detail being covered by noise, you should also check your read noise and see how much light your sensor should be getting before details get hidden by noise.

Noise coming out of the camera with an ISOless sensor is the same as upping the exposure later - if there is sufficient bit and/or dithering.

Okay that's a decent concept. Now riddle me this. How are you suddenly a self proclaimed expert on this, when this thread was opened by you, asking what the "hi settings did?" How do you go from asking a relatively newbish question, to sounding like a self proclaimed expert on how the sensor works? Oh wait, you read a bunch of stuff online, in forums. How about you get out in the real world and shoot some freaking photos rather than worrying about something that won't even be a possiblity for at least 5 years.

 

[nickzou]

Define "properly exposed". The example shown in my link above shows a scene photographed with two settings:

1/30, f2.0, ISO 100
1/30, f2.0, ISO 6400

Most people would traditionally say that only the second one was "properly exposed". In either case, the exact same amount of light hit the sensor of course. And with cameras like the D7000 that have very flat read noise curves, one can set the camera at ISO 100, capture approximately 14 stops worth of dynamic range, instead of setting it at 6400 where you'll only get about 7 stops (the camera will "clip" highlights). The jpg displayed on your on camera lcd will be terribly dark - perhaps totally black. But when you import your raw file into, say, Lightroom software and push the exposure 6 stops (while protecting highlights), the photo will reach the brightness you would have had at ISO6400, won't have blown highlights, and will have suffered no noise penalty.

In other words, with these types of sensors, in low light situations it's possible to forget about ISO when considering "exposure": leave it at iso100, pick the aperture you want for the DOF you want, and set the shutter speed you want to control motion, and then as long as you are within 6 or 8 stops, you can develop the image correctly on the computer instead of asking the camera to process it first (which is what changing the ISO on camera does, but in a less sophisticated manner than the computer can do).

WHATT?? Okay, I'm definitely trying this right now!

 

[EchoingWhisper]

You're right you aren't being rude. There is just NO point in arguing this since it's not something that is going to affect day to day photography. The fact remains that with EVERY dslr currently on the market, the best technique is to expose properly by using the lowest possible ISO in camera. If that happens to be 6400 so be it, because the noise coming out of camera is less than what would be produced by upping the exposure.

New question: How do I choose an aperture/SS combo if I'm shooting ISO'less. Say I'm shooting basketball in a poorly lit gym. Do I just decide that hey, I want a deep DOF to make sure the player is in focus, I'll shoot at 5.6. And then hey, I wanna freeze action COMPLETELY, so let's just shoot everything at 1/8000th to make sure it's frozen. I can go back to my computer and fix this black frame later!

To me, iso is still a part of exposure, even technically, because without it, you cannot calculate what a proper SS/Aperture combo even is.

How do you choose a Aperture/Shutter speed combo? Good question. It's the same as normal exposure - only you don't need to worry about your image being a black hole. Just set the aperture so that you get reasonable depth of field, and set the shutter speed so that there is little motion blur. Determine the brightness later. And in ISOless sensors, ETTR still apply, you want to get as much light as possible to get as many information as possible before blowing the highlights so that you get the least noise and the least banding. And to prevent you detail being covered by noise, you should also check your read noise and see how much light your sensor should be getting before details get hidden by noise.

Noise coming out of the camera with an ISOless sensor is the same as upping the exposure later - if there is sufficient bit and/or dithering.

Okay that's a decent concept. Now riddle me this. How are you suddenly a self proclaimed expert on this, when this thread was opened by you, asking what the "hi settings did?" How do you go from asking a relatively newbish question, to sounding like a self proclaimed expert on how the sensor works? Oh wait, you read a bunch of stuff online, in forums. How about you get out in the real world and shoot some freaking photos rather than worrying about something that won't even be a possiblity for at least 5 years.

I'm definitely not a expert. I am a novice, a beginner, trying to learn. I do read articles and forums. And that made me learn a lot, and I am now trying to explain to you what I learnt. I know what I heard is correct, and am fine for others to correct me. Reading makes you learn a lot. If you do bother read those links, then I'll need not explain all these to you.

When I started this thread, I just wanted to know how sensors work, and I am glad that I started this thread. Thanks to rsbones' links, I've found out lots of think I would never thought about.

"How about you get out in the real world and shoot some freaking photos rather than worrying about something that won't even be a possiblity for at least 5 years." This is already epossible, but it just isn't as convinient/beneficial until the UI change. For landscape or studio photographers, it will definitely benefit them.

 

[Dao]

Define "properly exposed". The example shown in my link above shows a scene photographed with two settings:

1/30, f2.0, ISO 100
1/30, f2.0, ISO 6400

Most people would traditionally say that only the second one was "properly exposed". In either case, the exact same amount of light hit the sensor of course. And with cameras like the D7000 that have very flat read noise curves, one can set the camera at ISO 100, capture approximately 14 stops worth of dynamic range, instead of setting it at 6400 where you'll only get about 7 stops (the camera will "clip" highlights). The jpg displayed on your on camera lcd will be terribly dark - perhaps totally black. But when you import your raw file into, say, Lightroom software and push the exposure 6 stops (while protecting highlights), the photo will reach the brightness you would have had at ISO6400, won't have blown highlights, and will have suffered no noise penalty.

In other words, with these types of sensors, in low light situations it's possible to forget about ISO when considering "exposure": leave it at iso100, pick the aperture you want for the DOF you want, and set the shutter speed you want to control motion, and then as long as you are within 6 or 8 stops, you can develop the image correctly on the computer instead of asking the camera to process it first (which is what changing the ISO on camera does, but in a less sophisticated manner than the computer can do).

WHATT?? Okay, I'm definitely trying this right now!

Please try, I'd like to see the result too.

 

[rsbones]

I think a lot of you are not understanding my original post in this thread because you do not have ISO-less cameras! You can't just go try this technique with every camera. Certainly not with the D80! You need a camera with a sensor with a flat read noise curve, like the Nikon D7000 and the other cameras that have that same sensor.

The point of my post was not to instruct anyone on how to use their camera. It was to point out that the way sensors are evolving, the best way to use the camera WILL change away from the traditional ways of thinking. These days are already here with the D7000. You really can get better results by shooting at lower ISO. If you own that camera, try it yourself. If you don't own that camera, go look at the dozens of examples now linked. But what you really should stop doing is stop claiming that because your camera can't do it, then this technique is incorrect! You just don't have the right camera for this technique! But someday soon, we all will because all cameras will have low read noise sensors.

 

[photography.next]

Well..Camera technicians and manufacturers guide you more better in this regard but to my knowledge it's a substitute I think. This is the term being used for ISO. As short abbreviation, we can say that its being presented in short format for High ISO. You can successfully Record High quality audio with an external microphone that's why its called as HI.

 

[Kerbouchard]

I can't believe I missed the first 97 posts of this thread. It makes me sad. I love this debate.

Also, for the ISO-less crowd, and the ETTR crowd, and the expose for a black frame crowd, there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned in the previous 97 posts. Not sure how it was missed, but ISO, in the digital world, refers to amplification before the analog to digital converter. Hi ISO is amplification after the analog to digial converter. It makes a huge difference.

Generally, the amplification before the analog to digital converter results in less noise, better dynamic range, and better colors. At this point, using ISO adjustments in camera will always result in a better finished product, until you reach the digital amplification stage(the Hi settings). There are no truly ISO-less cameras on the market today.

Also, FWIW, ISO is still not part of exposure.

 

[rsbones]

New question: How do I choose an aperture/SS combo if I'm shooting ISO'less. Say I'm shooting basketball in a poorly lit gym. Do I just decide that hey, I want a deep DOF to make sure the player is in focus, I'll shoot at 5.6. And then hey, I wanna freeze action COMPLETELY, so let's just shoot everything at 1/8000th to make sure it's frozen. I can go back to my computer and fix this black frame later!

To me, iso is still a part of exposure, even technically, because without it, you cannot calculate what a proper SS/Aperture combo even is.

No one is claiming that you can "underexpose" the photo and be able to fix it! In your example, you will not capture enough light at 5.6, 1/8000 no matter what ISO setting you use because not enough light will hit the sensor with that shutter speed and aperture. But let's say you decided that 1/500 is going to be the shutter speed you need. And you want f5.6 to keep multiple players in focus. You meter with an older dslr and it'll recommend ISO3200. With the D7000, you could go ahead and shoot with that. The camera will boost the gain as it processes the image to your card and it will clip out any light that falls off the right, so to speak. If this is a problem for you, what you can choose to do instead with the cameras like the D7000 is leave your aperture and shutter speed the same, and simply dial your ISO back down a few stops, heck probably even as far back as 100.

The camera will still capture just as much light as it did at iso3200. It will appear dark as hell in the jpg on your lcd screen. But when you import the raw file, you can adjust the brightness of the image so that you are only boosting the dark areas (leaving the highlights alone) and the photo will not get overly noisy! It will look the same as your iso3200 shot, except that it will still contain the highlights that the iso3200 shot had to clip out! This is the best of both worlds.

If you can't prove this to yourself with your camera, that is only because your camera does not have the proper type of sensor to shoot in this manner. But the next camera you buy might. Eventually, they all will.

 

[Destin]

New question: How do I choose an aperture/SS combo if I'm shooting ISO'less. Say I'm shooting basketball in a poorly lit gym. Do I just decide that hey, I want a deep DOF to make sure the player is in focus, I'll shoot at 5.6. And then hey, I wanna freeze action COMPLETELY, so let's just shoot everything at 1/8000th to make sure it's frozen. I can go back to my computer and fix this black frame later!

To me, iso is still a part of exposure, even technically, because without it, you cannot calculate what a proper SS/Aperture combo even is.

No one is claiming that you can "underexpose" the photo and be able to fix it! In your example, you will not capture enough light at 5.6, 1/8000 no matter what ISO setting you use because not enough light will hit the sensor with that shutter speed and aperture. But let's say you decided that 1/500 is going to be the shutter speed you need. And you want f5.6 to keep multiple players in focus. You meter with an older dslr and it'll recommend ISO3200. With the D7000, you could go ahead and shoot with that. The camera will boost the gain as it processes the image to your card and it will clip out any light that falls off the right, so to speak. If this is a problem for you, what you can choose to do instead with the cameras like the D7000 is leave your aperture and shutter speed the same, and simply dial your ISO back down a few stops, heck probably even as far back as 100.

The camera will still capture just as much light as it did at iso3200. It will appear dark as hell in the jpg on your lcd screen. But when you import the raw file, you can adjust the brightness of the image so that you are only boosting the dark areas (leaving the highlights alone) and the photo will not get overly noisy! It will look the same as your iso3200 shot, except that it will still contain the highlights that the iso3200 shot had to clip out! This is the best of both worlds.

If you can't prove this to yourself with your camera, that is only because your camera does not have the proper type of sensor to shoot in this manner. But the next camera you buy might. Eventually, they all will.

No matter what you say, I will ALWAYS argue that with the technology available to us at this point in time, you will achieve the best possible results by exposing the image properly in camera.

 

[Destin]

I can't believe I missed the first 97 posts of this thread. It makes me sad. I love this debate.

Also, for the ISO-less crowd, and the ETTR crowd, and the expose for a black frame crowd, there is one thing that hasn't been mentioned in the previous 97 posts. Not sure how it was missed, but ISO, in the digital world, refers to amplification before the analog to digital converter. Hi ISO is amplification after the analog to digial converter. It makes a huge difference.

Generally, the amplification before the analog to digital converter results in less noise, better dynamic range, and better colors. At this point, using ISO adjustments in camera will always result in a better finished product, until you reach the digital amplification stage(the Hi settings). There are no truly ISO-less cameras on the market today.

Also, FWIW, ISO is still not part of exposure.

WE FINALLY AGREE ON SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! zOMG NO FREAKING WAY!!

As far as the whole iso isn't a part of exposure thing, the definition of exposure you're using to claim that is not the same definition of exposure used by 99.99% of americans. Soooo...... lol

 

[MTVision]

No one is claiming that you can "underexpose" the photo and be able to fix it! In your example, you will not capture enough light at 5.6, 1/8000 no matter what ISO setting you use because not enough light will hit the sensor with that shutter speed and aperture. But let's say you decided that 1/500 is going to be the shutter speed you need. And you want f5.6 to keep multiple players in focus. You meter with an older dslr and it'll recommend ISO3200. With the D7000, you could go ahead and shoot with that. The camera will boost the gain as it processes the image to your card and it will clip out any light that falls off the right, so to speak. If this is a problem for you, what you can choose to do instead with the cameras like the D7000 is leave your aperture and shutter speed the same, and simply dial your ISO back down a few stops, heck probably even as far back as 100.

The camera will still capture just as much light as it did at iso3200. It will appear dark as hell in the jpg on your lcd screen. But when you import the raw file, you can adjust the brightness of the image so that you are only boosting the dark areas (leaving the highlights alone) and the photo will not get overly noisy! It will look the same as your iso3200 shot, except that it will still contain the highlights that the iso3200 shot had to clip out! This is the best of both worlds.

If you can't prove this to yourself with your camera, that is only because your camera does not have the proper type of sensor to shoot in this manner. But the next camera you buy might. Eventually, they all will.

I was really skeptical but I have to agree. I took 2 shots - 1@ 1/13 f/1.4 ISO 3200 and the 2nd one @ 1/13 f/1.4 ISO 100.

The shot taken at ISO 100 (after raising exposure in post) looks pretty much identical to the shot taken at ISO 3200. I don't have a d7000 but the d5100 does have the same sensor performance.

 

[rsbones]

No matter what you say, I will ALWAYS argue that with the technology available to us at this point in time, you will achieve the best possible results by exposing the image properly in camera.

Why would you purposefully limit your dynamic range and throw away data (the highlights that will get clipped) when you can capture it all? I believe that if you buy that D7000 you are considering, that you will change your opinion on what you will ALWAYS do pretty darn quickly!

Megan, thanks for posting the results of your tests with the D5100: it's nice to hear it also works well for this type of technique.

 

[EchoingWhisper]

No matter what you say, I will ALWAYS argue that with the technology available to us at this point in time, you will achieve the best possible results by exposing the image properly in camera.

Why would you purposefully limit your dynamic range and throw away data (the highlights that will get clipped) when you can capture it all? I believe that if you buy that D7000 you are considering, that you will change your opinion on what you will ALWAYS do pretty darn quickly!

Megan, thanks for posting the results of your tests with the D5100: it's nice to hear it also works well for this type of technique.

rsbones, I have one question... What can I do to raise exposure by 5 stops? LR only limit me to 4 stops.

 

[Destin]

Why would you purposefully limit your dynamic range and throw away data (the highlights that will get clipped) when you can capture it all? I believe that if you buy that D7000 you are considering, that you will change your opinion on what you will ALWAYS do pretty darn quickly!

Megan, thanks for posting the results of your tests with the D5100: it's nice to hear it also works well for this type of technique.

One sentence response: learn to expose properly and you won't blow highlights. Imagine that.