Who see's the beauty in Photography?

[jbylake]

I think the judging at any local fair's photography contest proves that the general public(in this case judges), like fans of great guitarists who don't know know anything about playing guitar, don't pick up on mistakes in photos or the technical difficulty or skill behind a photo.

I'd bet you're about 100 percent correct. When I was in the military, years ago, we had a base photo hobby shop. Every now and then they would sponsor a photo contest. Usuallly displayed them in a high traffic area, such as the base exchange, and people voted by paper ballot. There was no telling who or what might win, photo's of babies usually were the hand-down winners, whether or not they processed the photo from camera to darkroom, or used a disposable camera. Still, I guess they were pretty fun...

J.:mrgreen:

 

[NateWagner]

First of all, I agree with the OP that there are some beautiful images that get posted on this forum.

I would suggest as far as seeing the beauty now, I think I do, more so now than before I knew anything about photography. Before I would take a look at a picture and think, wow, that looks pretty cool. Now I can take a look at the same gorgeous images and be in awe of the amount of work, the effort the knowledge the timing, the composition, the processing etc. that went into creating this amazing image.

To me it is kind of like how I view paintings. I like the Mona Lisa, and I like Van Gogh's work, but... I don't see the beauty in it that others (particularly those who know the talent and skill and creativity that goes into creating these images) might see. I see a nice painting, but that's it. Learning about what makes it nice, learning about the lighting, learning about the little details is what allows me to see a majestic image instead of just a nice shot.

It is difficult, because there are some photographers that are among the best in the world, and I still cannot see why, there are intricacies in photography I still do not know and understand, but as I learn them I have no doubt that I will see ever more beauty in the masterpieces.

The problem with all of this is that, I do see the beauty in the excellent images, but when one is poorly composed it is difficult for me to appreciate the beauty any more.

That being said, does the general public see the same beauty that I see, probably not. They don't have the eye for the masterpieces yet.

Going on, my suggestion though, is that if you want to show your cool images, that are just "for fun" do so on facebook, or in the just for fun area. There all you will get are wow, that looks great. If you post in the photography forums you will run into more people like me who have learned more of what is great, leaving less room to admire what is adequate.

 

[Derrel]

J,
You wrote in your original post, "Not that I'm trying to spawn any debate of any type, I'm just curious, what others might think." (your own words)

And then you admitted in a subsequent post that you're, "not the greatest communicator." (your own words)

I think you original post was full of poorly-veiled subtext about how the C&C most people give here is too negative, too concerned with what is lacking in the photos. Your original post is an effort to suggest that we need to see the "beauty" in the shots posted here, and you also say that there is some good work posted here. I think your response to my post is obnoxious.

Have a beer yourself,and stop worrying about people who see bad work and comment on what's wrong with it. This forum has a lot of very weak photos posted in it, largely by newbies who are ASKING for C&C. Giving them "attaboys" does nothing to help their progress. And no, I was not born with a camera in my hand, but I studied photography at the junior high school, university, and community college level as well as earned my living doing photography for a time. I've studied photography for over 35 years now,and have assisted other photographers, shot weddings, shot sports for newspapers, as well as done small product and commercial shoots on my own,and have been published in a few national magazines and numerous newspapers over the past 35 years. I do have a few opinions on what is good,and what is a snapshot,and have studied composition and design. I have studied the works of the great masters of photography, as well as up and coming photographers' work.

My comments were in direct response to a self-professed not so good communicator's original post; pardon me if the response you got wasn't what you wanted, but in your ORIGINAL post, which you referred to, you asked, "what do you think?" Why do you expect people to think like you if you state you're not a good communicator,and you ask an open-ended question? c.cloudwalker and I both noted your OP's subtext and veiled comments. That is why two people picked up on the same undercurrent in your OP.

Have a beer yourself.

 

[jbylake]

J,
You wrote in your original post, "Not that I'm trying to spawn any debate of any type, I'm just curious, what others might think." (your own words)

And then you admitted in a subsequent post that you're, "not the greatest communicator." (your own words)

I think you original post was full of poorly-veiled subtext about how the C&C most people give here is too negative, too concerned with what is lacking in the photos. Your original post is an effort to suggest that we need to see the "beauty" in the shots posted here, and you also say that there is some good work posted here. I think your response to my post is obnoxious.

Have a beer yourself,and stop worrying about people who see bad work and comment on what's wrong with it. This forum has a lot of very weak photos posted in it, largely by newbies who are ASKING for C&C. Giving them "attaboys" does nothing to help their progress. And no, I was not born with a camera in my hand, but I studied photography at the junior high school, university, and community college level as well as earned my living doing photography for a time. I've studied photography for over 35 years now,and have assisted other photographers, shot weddings, shot sports for newspapers, as well as done small product and commercial shoots on my own,and have been published in a few national magazines and numerous newspapers over the past 35 years. I do have a few opinions on what is good,and what is a snapshot,and have studied composition and design. I have studied the works of the great masters of photography, as well as up and coming photographers' work.

My comments were in direct response to a self-professed not so good communicator's original post; pardon me if the response you got wasn't what you wanted, but in your ORIGINAL post, which you referred to, you asked, "what do you think?" Why do you expect people to think like you if you state you're not a good communicator,and you ask an open-ended question? c.cloudwalker and I both noted your OP's subtext and veiled comments. That is why two people picked up on the same undercurrent in your OP.

Have a beer yourself.

Nah...no veiled, poorly or otherwise, ulterior motives. The OP was generally about how non-photographers, or persons with absolutely no experience in photography, judge and appreciate, or not, how much work, and planning goes into a really good photo....that's all..if you continue to wish to read into some subliminal sub-plot that I've concocted, well, carry on.:lmao:
As far as having a beer?, myself?....sounds about pretty good right now..
think I will.

J.:mrgreen:

 

[ottor]

"How did it get so far off track. Maybe it's best we kill it now before it becomes a discussion over CIA interrogation techniques.Have a beer."

I like it..... You crack a Corona, and I'll Waterboard a Newbie...

 

[skieur]

I really think you're right. I find it nice sometimes to just look at a picture and think, "wow, that's really cool". It really sucks that people can't lay aside the technical details and appreciate the fact that, that photo means something to someone and they took the time to snap the shot and upload it to share with us.
This little things need to be appreciated sometimes.

But then again I agree with NOYZE, upload these photos there so they can be appreciated as just a nice photo.

I think the viewing of photos is related to the perspective of the viewer. If all you have seen is snapshots that are mostly over or under-exposed and some are blurry, then from your point of view any technically excellent snapshot is outstanding.

On the other end of the spectrum, if you have seen hundreds of technically excellent photos, then minor technically defficiencies are major weaknesses.

If you have also seen hundreds of technically excellent photos that also make the most of artistic composition, then your expectations and critique of photos will be at a very high level.

This is the mix of perspective on any photographic forum and should be expected by all those submitting photos for critique.

skieur

 

[i Kandi Photography]

What c.cloudwalker said:thumbup:

Wayyyy to many people want "attaboys" and "nice shot!" on photos that have been made within their first week of d-slr ownership. Far too many people don't understand when to hold their camera vertically, or why their snapshots of things dear to them are not showered with accolades. If one has studied and practiced a subject for years, one becomes less impressed with the efforts of beginners in that same field.

Is the piano recital of a violin beginner truly as beautiful as the music a concert violinist plays? Which one commits more fundamental flaws? photography is a lot like that--the web and the world itself is FILLED with absolutely gorgeous, virtually flawless images, made by experienced shooters.
Beginner-level photography is hard to get excited about these days.

Did you even read the origional post? It's totally apples and oranges here.
while most of what you said, if not all, is true. However you, and c.cloudwalker have read something into this thread that's not there. In fact I just cannot find how you could have be so off-track from my OP in this thread.

It has nothing to be with new people with camera's vs. pro's. Although I might point out that you weren't born with a camera in your hand either.

But, again, this thread, when started has nothing to do with your, or c.clouders response. It's like I talked about jogging, and you moved the thread to mining for ore on mars. How did it get so far off track. Maybe it's best we kill it now before it becomes a discussion over CIA interrogation techniques. Have a beer.

J.:mrgreen:

That was freaking great!

 

[pharmakon]

The OP was generally about how non-photographers, or persons with absolutely no experience in photography, judge and appreciate, or not, how much work, and planning goes into a really good photo....

I see what you are saying. As someone who is new to photography I will say that in the short time I have been reading books, online tutorials, and c&c from experienced photog's on this forum my Idea of a "good photo" has changed dramatically.

The music analogy fits perfectly because both music and photography are forms of art. I am sure that years of studying photography will eventually ruin my view of people's "snapshots" just as years in the music biz (as an artist and also working for a sound and lighting production company) ruined going out to places with cover bands. I only hear the technical flaws and typically horrible mix. But I also appreciate a good musician when I hear one, even if no one else around me can tell the difference.

Also as a side note what drew me in to TPF in the first place was the thoughtful, critical C&C that was dealt out when asked for. I love looking at what I think is a great shot, then seeing an experienced photographer's comments and getting that moment of enlightenment, soaking in the knowledge like a sponge. It helps me to see things differently and hopefully improve my own photos. So if someone ASKS for C&C I hope people keep giving it.

 

[Randall Ellis]

Makes me wonder, if the non-photo public really notices the difference from a good shot, and a really wonderful shot. I really doubt it. The harshest critic's are going to be from Pro's, or those who are Pro's in their own minds.

Basically, what I was trying to state ... we often look and work long and hard to get that "perfect" shot. And the only people who are going to "get" it, are other photographers. Most people are just going to say cool, some times even if it's a crappy shot.

I think that many people who don't understand the technology still appreciate powerful photographs. Sure, they don't appreciate these images for the amount of work that went into them, and they don't appreciate how difficult it is to have powerful ideas, but they still appreciate the images. If they say 'cool' and move on, aren't they still expressing appreciation?

When I look at a photograph I appreciate the way the photographer used composition, balance, line, form, shape, tonal values, hues, etc. as well as how the overall image impacts me. Basically I'm aware of why it is a strong image because I can pick out the technical aspects that give it that impact. Even if someone is not aware of the why, the impact is still there because when these concepts are properly implemented you don't have to be able to appreciate them specifically to appreciate the whole.

Now, if the image in question only appeals to people who know how much work went into it, who can identify the amount of effort involved, perhaps it's not all that strong of an image after all. It seems to me that those who have no idea of the technical aspects should still be able to appreciate the image (like myself with music - I love classical music, but I know nothing of the technical aspects required to create it)

- Randy

 

[jbylake]

"How did it get so far off track. Maybe it's best we kill it now before it becomes a discussion over CIA interrogation techniques.Have a beer."

I like it..... You crack a Corona, and I'll Waterboard a Newbie...

Hey, I was "waterboarded" in survival/pow school in the military....is scary as hell. I'll crack that beer, and you let that poor newbie up!
Guess it's really time to let this one die now...but we'll continue to monitor the situation on how you treat newbies:lmao:

J.:mrgreen:

 

[NateWagner]

I think that many people who don't understand the technology still appreciate powerful photographs. Sure, they don't appreciate these images for the amount of work that went into them, and they don't appreciate how difficult it is to have powerful ideas, but they still appreciate the images. If they say 'cool' and move on, aren't they still expressing appreciation?
...
Now, if the image in question only appeals to people who know how much work went into it, who can identify the amount of effort involved, perhaps it's not all that strong of an image after all. It seems to me that those who have no idea of the technical aspects should still be able to appreciate the image (like myself with music - I love classical music, but I know nothing of the technical aspects required to create it)

It is not a question of how much work went into it, but rather, whether or not people appreciate the skill and artistry that goes into making high quality art (be that music, painting, photography or whatever). As I was discussing earlier with the Mona Lisa, I may look at it, and be appreciative. It is nice to look at, but, If I were to study art I would most likely have a deeper appreciation for the same image.

If a person looks at an amazing Ansel Adams photograph, will they like it? sure. But, will they have the appreciation for it that many photographers have? probably not. To many people they might see these images and think, well, I have a camera and if I was there I could have taken that shot as well.

or, Wow, he was lucky to be in that place at that time.

Either way the image is a nice image to look at. Both photographers and the general public like the image, but who is going to appreciate it more.

Here is what I'm saying: I have yet to see any images that are technically proficient, that are done by any amazing photographers that the general public does not appreciate. That doesn't happen, the general public likes and can see the beauty in good photographs.

However, the people who appreciate these images THE MOST are the ones that see what was done and understand the work and skill that is taken to achieve this image.

 

[ottor]

"How did it get so far off track. Maybe it's best we kill it now before it becomes a discussion over CIA interrogation techniques.Have a beer."

I like it..... You crack a Corona, and I'll Waterboard a Newbie...

Hey, I was "waterboarded" in survival/pow school in the military....is scary as hell. I'll crack that beer, and you let that poor newbie up!
Guess it's really time to let this one die now...but we'll continue to monitor the situation on how you treat newbies:lmao:

J.:mrgreen:

Apparently W/Boarding is a newer tactic - We just got thrown in a pit, starved, and beat ........ THEN, they shipped us to Nam..

Former 9th Infantry Special Forces LRRP -

Oh, and to keep the thread going..... Yea - I like photography pictures.. :mrgreen:

 

[c.cloudwalker]

I have re-read your original post and still get it the same way.

no veiled, poorly or otherwise, ulterior motives. Fine. How about naive?

But not in this case: "Not that I'm trying to spawn any debate of any type." You may not want to create it but you expect it... which, frankly, is about the same.

For some reason I am getting from your original post quite the opposite of what you now say you wanted to express. Critics be damn! Fine. That is why we now have people who can't sing earning millions of dollars while truly great singer can't make a living.

The rule of the lowest-common-denominator does not and will never apply for me.

If you don't get it, re-read yourself.

 

[jbylake]

You and one other person "get" the alleged hidden, naive, whatever, subliminal message "hidden" in the "real" meaning of an otherwise totally benign post.

I once heard that wrapping aluminum foil around your head will stop those "conspiracy" voices from entering your mind.

Now, please read one of the final posts, where I stated let this thread die.

'nuff said. I refuse to be trolled into a flame war. That's what the iggy button is for. Too bad. I've read many of your posts and found them to be well written and informative, for the most part.

Bye...

J.:mrgreen:

 

[Randall Ellis]

Here is what I'm saying: I have yet to see any images that are technically proficient, that are done by any amazing photographers that the general public does not appreciate. That doesn't happen, the general public likes and can see the beauty in good photographs.

However, the people who appreciate these images THE MOST are the ones that see what was done and understand the work and skill that is taken to achieve this image.

I can see your point of view, but I would posit that they appreciate it differently rather than in terms of 'more' or 'less'. Or, perhaps they appreciate it for different reasons rather than more or less. It's an interesting point of view really - it gets into why art (of any stripe) is appreciated, which something that has been debated for an extraordinarily long amount of time and there are pundits for many points of view...

- Randy