Your Ideal Button/Dial Placement

[Derrel]

I like the Nikon 60-year-old concept of the depth of field preview/stopped down light metering control being run with the middle finger of the right hand; Canon,after decades of idiotically using a LEFT-HAND depth of field preview control, on the 5D-III has decided to copy Nikon, and move the DOF preview control to...right where Nikon has had it since 1959.

When I am holding my camera, the DoF button on my 7D is right underneath my left thumb. Not a problem.

Except of course, Canon still flip-flops the shutter speed and the lens aperture adjustment between the front wheel and the big, back wheel, depending on which exposure mode the camera happens to be in, so that you're not always positive WHAT those controls will actually adjust. Canon's idea of alternating shutter and alternating aperture control back and forth,back and forth, back and forth across two control wheels is like a car, where the gas and the brake alternate between two closely-spaced pedals--depending on which gear the car happens to be in! Laughable!

It's not that hard. In Tv or Av, the finger dial adjusts the setting you have control over. And the rear button controls your exposure compensation. It's not that hard, just different. I've never had a problem with it.

As far as having four buttons on the top right deck, with each button adjusting TWO settings, depending, the way Canon does it...I hate that. That 4-button-each with 2 functions concept is crappy design, but it is all Canon could think of when they slapped the EOS system together back in 1986.

Why?

I vastly prefer single-function, dedicated external controls for things like ISO, Image Size and quality, self-timer,etc.

But then you have a whole bunch of buttons that only do one thing. Doubling up the functionality leads to a cleaner design of camera. And it's not that hard to remember "Button A and thumb dial does this, Button A and finger dial does that."

Single-funcction buttons make it easier to control functions without ever,ever,ever making a mistake. The "concept" of dual-function buttons has lead to the mode-mentality, where eight functions are split up between four buttons, each function requiring a press to activate it, then a control movement to adjust...it's a lame-ass system. Experts in ergonomics have long noted that "cleaner design" means SINGLE-funtion, dedicated controls...not making one control perform two functions...

Case in point...Oregon City, Oregon | News, Photos, Resources and More - OregonLive.com

Poor old bastard must be a Canon user...he forgot which control did what...

Yeah, nice try on the TV and AV mode comment...but what about the other modes??? You conveniently mentioned only half the truth, but I can understand how bad it sucks when you have a losing argument, so I know why you made your weak point but failed to address the actual,entire truth of the matter....Canon's idea is quite simply, to yo-yo control functions between one control and another...if you just wanna be a happy-snapper, the Canon control design works adequately, but not eloquently. A good example is the cockpit of a jet airliner---DOZENS of individual gauges and controls, each with only one,specific function; when one control has two functions, the chances of making an error go up significantly. That is why a smart designer will make as many control buttons as needed to control critical settings. Not try to make four controls do double duty in order to save $1.00 in production costs on each body.

The depth of field preview falling under your LEFT THUMB. You are too,too funny! Try holding a 300/2.8 and manipulating the depth of field preview button while using your left hand to FOCUS the lens! Nobody on this entire PLANET can do that... You clearly have zero clue of what stopped-down focusing means...you're not even advanced enough to recognize WHY the depth of field preview button needs to be operated with the RIGHT hand. The reason is so that one can FOCUS the lens, with the DOF button pressed, to see the effects of varying focus placements--simultaneously. This is very important in portraiture, and many still-life and landscape type scenarios where the user has enough experience to realize the benefit that comes from focusing in the stopped down mode. Canon has finally, after 50 years or so of making SLR cameras, seen fit to copy Nikon's 1959-2012 placement of the DOF preview button. The DOF preview feature is a control that advanced shooters with years of actual experience actually use, so, to many Canon shooters, the left-hand, useless placement of the DOF preview button over the last 50 years has been something they've not understood. To newbies who have never worked with a better system, Canon's fu^&ed-up, 1986 control ethos probably seems workable. And it is workable, and laughable at the same time. Lack of consistency is its weakness. Increased complexity (if a few more critical buttons is 'complexity') is easy for a person to deal with, but inconsistency is very hard to deal with. Canon's idea of eight functions, controlled by four tiny,tiny bumps is not "cleaner design", it's lame design. From the mid-eighties. When this entire idea was new to them. They made early mistakes in ergonomics, and have not bothered to fix the design, except to copy Nikon's placement of the DOF preview and to imitate Nikon's original use of the FUNC button; the 5D-III is more Nikon-like than any Canon ever made. Canon has FINALLY figured out why the left-hand DOF preview button was useless as teats on a boar.

A good example of the undesirable nature of the dual-function/one input point control concept: the cheap-o cameras have ONE control to adjust the shutter speed with. Buuuuuuut, if you want to adjust the lens aperture, you must press in a tiny little button and hold it, and then use the "shutter speed adjusting wheel" to move the aperture up or down. That is an almost universally despised, lame-ass method of controlling a camera, using ONE control to manipulate two different, CRITICAL functions. So....please make a case of how having four buttons control eight functions is anything but an economy, cost-saving measure for Canon and is actually a "good thing". (Again, the four tiny-tiny bumps idea Canon puked up in 1986 was the best their engineers could come up with...they have not been able to figure out how to do it better in over 25 years. It costs more to make separate controls, but then Canon expects its buyers to be "end-users", and not photographers, for the most part.)

Maybe some day, some day, Canon will figure out how to do a mirror lock-up button. Give 'em another 25 years!!!

 

[Overread19 7]

A good example of this concept: the cheap-o cameras have ONE control to adjust the shutter speed with. Buuuuuuut, if you want to adjust the lens aperture, you must press in a tiny little button and hold it, and then use the "shutter speed adjusting wheel" to move the aperture up or down. That is an almost universally despised, lame-ass method of controlling a camera, using ONE control to manipulate two different,

I'm still faster on my 400D than my 7D Mostly because I don't have to move my thumb down the back of the body to reach the other dial - and because I prefer my first finger doing the moving around = the thumb just has to hit the AF button and the preflash button and the one I hold down to let me change aperture

 

[Derrel]

A good example of this concept: the cheap-o cameras have ONE control to adjust the shutter speed with. Buuuuuuut, if you want to adjust the lens aperture, you must press in a tiny little button and hold it, and then use the "shutter speed adjusting wheel" to move the aperture up or down. That is an almost universally despised, lame-ass method of controlling a camera, using ONE control to manipulate two different,

I'm still faster on my 400D than my 7D Mostly because I don't have to move my thumb down the back of the body to reach the other dial - and because I prefer my first finger doing the moving around = the thumb just has to hit the AF button and the preflash button and the one I hold down to let me change aperture

Yes, I know what you mean. Canon's controls do suck, and are awkward.

The need to remove the thumb from its natural shooting position to make a control change is a big difference between Canons and Nikons.

The Canon 5D III now has the DOF preview button where Nikon has had it since 1959. And the Canon 5D-III now has a FUNC button...just like the one Nikon invented. Canon has copied Nikon's control placement and design ethos. Why might that be?

 

[EchoingWhisper]

The camera manufacturers could save some space/buttons by making dials clickable.

You mean like the mouse scroll wheel?
I don't know how I feel about that on a camera. I say that because when I use my mouse my hand is generally relaxed and the overall weight is not held on the fingers at all. Thus I've actually got to think and press on the scroll wheel to engage the button. On a camera my left hand is not relaxed; when shooting its firm to hold the camera, which means pressure is on my fingers. I could easily see a button under the scrolling wheel being very easily pressed by accident in such a situation.

Yeah. Like the mouse scroll wheel. If the resistance is strong enough, I think you wouldn't accidentally press it.

 

[EchoingWhisper]

Although I really like Canon's menu (not info display), their info display and the directional button (plus the things it changes) is really weird.

 

[Tiberius47]

Single-funcction buttons make it easier to control functions without ever,ever,ever making a mistake. The "concept" of dual-function buttons has lead to the mode-mentality, where eight functions are split up between four buttons, each function requiring a press to activate it, then a control movement to adjust...it's a lame-ass system. Experts in ergonomics have long noted that "cleaner design" means SINGLE-funtion, dedicated controls...not making one control perform two functions...

Well, for those of us who are capable of pressing and holding a button while we spin a dial with our finger or thumb, it doesn't pose a problem. There's a learning curve to everything, and once you are familiar with it, you can adjust it like an extension of your own body.

BTW, I would have thought that a CLEANER design is not one where there's a million buttons, one for each function.

Case in point...Oregon City, Oregon | News, Photos, Resources and More - OregonLive.com

Poor old bastard must be a Canon user...he forgot which control did what...

I'm sorry, is there a point to that link? because it just takes me to a list of links.

Yeah, nice try on the TV and AV mode comment...but what about the other modes???

What? manual mode? Do you keep getting confused when you switch between semi automatic modes and manual modes? Do you have trouble finding the exposure compensation in manual mode before you realise that it isn't there?

You conveniently mentioned only half the truth, but I can understand how bad it sucks when you have a losing argument, so I know why you made your weak point but failed to address the actual,entire truth of the matter

My god you're rude. Got a lens up your butt or something?

....Canon's idea is quite simply, to yo-yo control functions between one control and another...if you just wanna be a happy-snapper, the Canon control design works adequately, but not eloquently. A good example is the cockpit of a jet airliner---DOZENS of individual gauges and controls, each with only one,specific function; when one control has two functions, the chances of making an error go up significantly. That is why a smart designer will make as many control buttons as needed to control critical settings. Not try to make four controls do double duty in order to save $1.00 in production costs on each body.

Oh boo hoo.

The reason that they don't double things up in plane cockpits is firstly because many of the intruments are designed for one thing - how do you get an altimeter to act as a compass? You can't. So you have them separate. Secondly, it's because in many cases, the pilot will need to use any two of them together. And since its very hard to design an instrument that can do two jobs at the same time and still give clear readings on both, they didn't bother. But with camera's, how many times do you need to adjust your ISO and flash exposure compensation at the same time? Hardly ever? Do you often want to adjust your focus mode at the same time as you are changing your white balance?

And you got a source on your $1 savings, or are you just whining?

The depth of field preview falling under your LEFT THUMB. You are too,too funny! Try holding a 300/2.8 and manipulating the depth of field preview button while using your left hand to FOCUS the lens! Nobody on this entire PLANET can do that...

Well, golly gee, if I'm using a lens that heavy I'd probably be using a goddamned monopod, wouldn't i! Your rudeness is unbelievable.

You clearly have zero clue of what stopped-down focusing means...you're not even advanced enough to recognize WHY the depth of field preview button needs to be operated with the RIGHT hand. The reason is so that one can FOCUS the lens, with the DOF button pressed, to see the effects of varying focus placements--simultaneously.

Did your mother teach you manners at all?

Left hand holds camera and operates DoF. When I hold my camera, the weight is ALWAYS supported by my left hand, as it is the one under the camera. Right hand adjusts focus.

This is very important in portraiture, and many still-life and landscape type scenarios where the user has enough experience to realize the benefit that comes from focusing in the stopped down mode.

And they'd be using TRIPODS, wouldn't they? Why would they need to hold the camera when the tripod is doing it?

Canon has finally, after 50 years or so of making SLR cameras, seen fit to copy Nikon's 1959-2012 placement of the DOF preview button. The DOF preview feature is a control that advanced shooters with years of actual experience actually use, so, to many Canon shooters, the left-hand, useless placement of the DOF preview button over the last 50 years has been something they've not understood. To newbies who have never worked with a better system, Canon's fu^&ed-up, 1986 control ethos probably seems workable. And it is workable, and laughable at the same time. Lack of consistency is its weakness. Increased complexity (if a few more critical buttons is 'complexity') is easy for a person to deal with, but inconsistency is very hard to deal with. Canon's idea of eight functions, controlled by four tiny,tiny bumps is not "cleaner design", it's lame design. From the mid-eighties. When this entire idea was new to them. They made early mistakes in ergonomics, and have not bothered to fix the design, except to copy Nikon's placement of the DOF preview and to imitate Nikon's original use of the FUNC button; the 5D-III is more Nikon-like than any Canon ever made. Canon has FINALLY figured out why the left-hand DOF preview button was useless as teats on a boar.

I bet you have Nikon brochures under your bed with all the pages stuck together.

A good example of the undesirable nature of the dual-function/one input point control concept: the cheap-o cameras have ONE control to adjust the shutter speed with. Buuuuuuut, if you want to adjust the lens aperture, you must press in a tiny little button and hold it, and then use the "shutter speed adjusting wheel" to move the aperture up or down. That is an almost universally despised, lame-ass method of controlling a camera, using ONE control to manipulate two different, CRITICAL functions.

I agree with you there, but I think you'll find that is on cameras that don't have the space for a second dial.

So....please make a case of how having four buttons control eight functions is anything but an economy, cost-saving measure for Canon and is actually a "good thing". (Again, the four tiny-tiny bumps idea Canon puked up in 1986 was the best their engineers could come up with...they have not been able to figure out how to do it better in over 25 years. It costs more to make separate controls, but then Canon expects its buyers to be "end-users", and not photographers, for the most part.)

Ah yes, and I suppose that when you start designing cameras, they'll all as many buttons as this:

Each button with its own function. Your camera doesn't have a button for switching between Adobe RGB and sRGB? It's a piece of crap!!!

Maybe some day, some day, Canon will figure out how to do a mirror lock-up button. Give 'em another 25 years!!!

Ah, but if they've got buttons for everything else, where will they put it?

For F**k's sake, it's just a bloody camera, not a religion!

 

[Buckster]

You clearly have zero clue of what stopped-down focusing means...you're not even advanced enough to recognize WHY the depth of field preview button needs to be operated with the RIGHT hand. The reason is so that one can FOCUS the lens, with the DOF button pressed, to see the effects of varying focus placements--simultaneously. Did your mother teach you manners at all?

Left hand holds camera and operates DoF. When I hold my camera, the weight is ALWAYS supported by my left hand, as it is the one under the camera. Right hand adjusts focus.

That's just plain wrong. The left hand always supports the lens and operates its focus. You may be thinking about half-pressing the shutter or using the back button to get a focus lock. He's talking about using the lens itself to get a precise focus using the focusing ring on the lens. If you're using the right hand to make adjustments on the lens, what do you do when it's time to press the shutter button? Your right hand is bouncing back and forth between the lens focus ring and the shutter button/other controls on the body?

Sorry, but that's just plain nuts. He's being overly dramatic and somewhat of a jerk, but he's right on this one in particular. The DOF button on the Canon is just plain in the wrong spot, and I'm a Canon user on my 4th body here, not a Nikon fanboi. It is what it is.

This is very important in portraiture, and many still-life and landscape type scenarios where the user has enough experience to realize the benefit that comes from focusing in the stopped down mode.

And they'd be using TRIPODS, wouldn't they? Why would they need to hold the camera when the tripod is doing it?

It doesn't matter. You can't hold in the DOF button with the left hand AND adjust the focus ring on the lens with the left hand at the same time, in order to keep the right hand in place to work the body controls including the shutter at the precise moment you get the focus and DOF together.

 

[Tiberius47]

In both examples, I was assuming that the camera was on a tripod. If focus is such an issue that you need to focus manually, then you probably wouldn't be hand holding.

 

[Buckster]

In both examples, I was assuming that the camera was on a tripod. If focus is such an issue that you need to focus manually, then you probably wouldn't be hand holding.

You're missing the point. It's not about hand holding. It's about what the left hand does when working a camera, and what the right hand does. The left hand is ON THE LENS to make focus adjustments, while the right hand is ON THE BODY to work the controls/buttons/Shutter Button.

With those two hands both far away from the DOF button where Canon has placed it, it cannot be accessed when it needs to be.

 

[MTVision]

In both examples, I was assuming that the camera was on a tripod. If focus is such an issue that you need to focus manually, then you probably wouldn't be hand holding.

I'm not familiar with Canon but I did have a comment about the above. Not all camera/lens have autofocus nor did they always. People still use manual focus and not always with a tripod. So regardless of the above examples wouldn't what they are saying about a DOF button make sense?

 

[Tiberius47]

In that case it is, but in 99% of cases, anyone who is serious enough to be focusing manually while stopped down is also serious enough to be using a tripod.

 

[Buckster]

In that case it is, but in 99% of cases, anyone who is serious enough to be focusing manually while stopped down is also serious enough to be using a tripod.

It doesn't matter if they're using a tripod or not.

 

[MTVision]

In that case it is, but in 99% of cases, anyone who is serious enough to be focusing manually while stopped down is also serious enough to be using a tripod.

I don't really get what "serious enough to be focusing manually" means. Some people still shoot with camera/lenses without autofocus. I have lenses that don't autofocus and I don't always use a tripod.

I don't have a DOF button so I'm not too familiar with it but do people only use it when they are using small apertures? I would think it'd be handy for all apertures but then again I don't know.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

In that case it is, but in 99% of cases, anyone who is serious enough to be focusing manually while stopped down is also serious enough to be using a tripod.

It doesn't matter if they're using a tripod or not.

As a Canon shooter, I have to agree that the DoF preview button is in a dorky location. Even on a tripod.

It's also too close to the lens release button.

Continuing to fight this point, Tibby, just makes you look bad.



Although, I'll give you credit for the sticky Nikon brochures under the bed comment. Now THAT was funny.

 

[EchoingWhisper]

Even if you're not manual focusing, it'll be a fuss to zoom, then take your left hand away from the zoom ring to click the DOF preview, and then zoom again. From your point of view, you seem to think that if you're manual focusing/zooming with your left hand, then you could use your right hand to click the DOF button. But it isn't really comfortable to do that.