"My Photos Are NOT OK to Edit"

[limr]

A) Is this a learning environment? Are we all tasked to teach each other? Or are we just like-minded people in terms of this activity of photography that have come together to share images, ideas, and witty repartee?

If you are posting for critique, this is a learning environment.
Not just for you, but for others following along. Don't forget that others viewing are getting an opportunity to learn from discussion of your image. It's a shared experience that benefits more than just you. It benefits the community.

B) I'm not closing any doors. I'm asking that people find out first if it's even useful to me at the moment. How much of an "opportunity" is it for ME to learn when YOU do something for me without even knowing if I want or need it?

I've learned more stuff when I wasn't looking for feedback, or when I thought I didn't "need" it.
So yeah, the "opportunity" is ALWAYS there. And you ARE closing doors.

That's fine. It's your choice. You are free to limit yourself.

You don't know what you don't know, until you know it.

Oh please.

Are you also not limited by not being able to verbalize your advice if that is how the person is asking to get their feedback?

You all are acting like editing for another person is the ONLY WAY THEY WILL LEARN! It's not.

And now I'm going to limit myself to discussions other than this one.

 

[JacaRanda]

The_traveler has a really fantastic method of helping someone with processing.
Skype. just send him a photo you want help with, get on skype with him, and you can see his computer screen on your computer screen, and with headphones and a mic he can walk you through every step he uses in Photoshop or lightroom to edit a photo, and you can see how he does it in real time.
its really cool.

Except that you have to see Lew in real time.

amazingly enough,
just like Steve5D, Lew is incredibly charming in person.

dont let their (sometimes) grumpy internet persona fool you.

Never met either in person, but I really get the feeling that this is true. Just a hunch

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

You all are acting like editing for another person is the ONLY WAY THEY WILL LEARN! It's not.

No, I'm not at all.
Let me quote myself...
"Allowing editing, opens doors for DIFFERENT avenues if learning, of seeing, of thinking, VISUALLY, for everyone involved."


There are instances that text will convey the message just fine.
You have to admit, though, that an image is SOMETIMES the best way to get the point across.

 

[runnah]

I am 100% aboard the Dave train on this one.

Elle, how do you correct papers?

 

[The_Traveler]

The problem is that YOU (the editor) are making the decision about what is "better," not the person asking for help. Don't we get the option to say, "I appreciate that you like to show things through edits, but I'd rather have a different form of feedback right now."

THIS is my main issue with the whole argument, the whole "We know what's best for you better than you know yourself" attitude.

I see that.
So your decision about the way help is given should trump the way that the giver thinks is best.

In the first 'Scary Movie' a beggar asks a passerby, Anna Faris, for a dollar to buy some food and instead Anna Faris gives him a sandwich she had bought for her lunch.
As Faris walks away, the beggar looks at the sandwich and then throws it at her back, yelling, "*****, I said I wanted a dollar."

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

The problem is that YOU (the editor) are making the decision about what is "better," not the person asking for help.

Umm, that applies to text critique as well. So, your point is lost.

Everyone should be operating on the idea that all critique is opinion.
Presenting opinions opens the door for discussion, and different people will take away different points from that discussion. An image that conveys ones opinion, gets the point across immediately, without every one involved having to go do it themselves to visualize it. It's one thing to suggest an image is underexposed, it's better to show what the helper believes to be ideal, and then with that immediate visual, discussion can unfold.

 

[limr]

You all are acting like editing for another person is the ONLY WAY THEY WILL LEARN! It's not.

No, I'm not at all.
Let me quote myself...
"Allowing editing, opens doors for DIFFERENT avenues if learning, of seeing, of thinking, VISUALLY, for everyone involved."


There are instances that text will convey the message just fine.
You have to admit, though, that an image is SOMETIMES the best way to get the point across.

Now let me quote MYself from several pages back:

Again, I need to stress that I DO think that this kind of feedback can be useful, but I do NOT understand what's wrong with not wanting to give carte blanche to anyone at any time to do whatever they want to my photos.

I've said from the start that yes, editing is useful, but that I feel that I should have a say in whether or not someone gets to edit my own work for the sake of showing me something. I know what I'm asking for, and if I feel an edit would be useful to answer that question, then I will say at the start, "Feel free to edit this if you want." But if I'm asking for something else or don't actually even want feedback for a particular picture, then give the edits a rest.

The setting has nothing to do with how I feel about editing, either in general or as a learning device. It simply says "Ask me first." I don't know how many more times I have to say that.

I am 100% aboard the Dave train on this one.

Elle, how do you correct papers?

I don't 'correct' them, actually. For more 'macro' issues like organization, errors in logic, lack of a clear thesis, I'll suggest things like "put another example here" or "this should be rearranged" or "you're going off the topic in this paragraph." For more 'micro' edits, like grammar or punctuation, every once in a while I'll just put the correct form, but mostly, I will draw their attention to a word or phrase or incorrectly used punctuation, and tell them what KIND of error was made (subject-verb agreement, run-on sentence, incorrect word form) and they have to correct it themselves.

They would learn nothing if I simply wrote all the correct forms. Part of my task as a teacher is to teach them how to correct themselves.

I see that.
So your decision about the way help is given should trump the way that the giver thinks is best.

No, you have misunderstood. My decision is that it should be a collaboration between the two. The decision should not be solely in the giver's hands, either.

In the first 'Scary Movie' a beggar asks a passerby, Anna Faris, for a dollar to buy some food and instead Anna Faris gives him a sandwich she had bought for her lunch.
As Faris walks away, the beggar looks at the sandwich and then throws it at her back, yelling, "*****, I said I wanted a dollar."

Seriously? You're comparing me to a beggar on the street in a movie scene? Because that's not patronizing at all.

 

[limr]

The problem is that YOU (the editor) are making the decision about what is "better," not the person asking for help.

Umm, that applies to text critique as well. So, your point is lost.

Everyone should be operating on the idea that all critique is opinion.
Presenting opinions opens the door for discussion, and different people will take away different points from that discussion. An image that conveys ones opinion, gets the point across immediately, without every one involved having to go do it themselves to visualize it. It's one thing to suggest an image is underexposed, it's better to show what the helper believes to be ideal, and then with that immediate visual, discussion can unfold.

The decision of HOW to give the critique, not the content of the critique itself.

 

[ffarl]

Oh you guys... Always a passionate discussion over here.

I'll say this... As a songwriter, I HATE collaborating, but I generally like the result better. I'll bring a song to the guys that I think is "finished" and they want to play around with it. When one of them says "well what if we did....X", how would it look if I sat with my arms folded and refused to participate, so we couldn't hear what it sounded like with their idea incorporated.

Hearing that your artwork isn't perfect kinda sucks. Being shown that it's not perfect sucks a little more. On the other hand, if someone takes your artwork and makes it look like steamy crap, that's probably worst of all.

Would I let Willie Nelson re-arrange one of my songs? Yep. Would I let Lincoln Park or some other "garbage that Mishele listens to (love ya)" band do it? Hell no.

Maybe we need a third option... "My photos are OK to edit as long as you don't suck at what you do".

 

[mishele]

Would I let Lincoln Park or some other "garbage that Mishele listens to (love ya)" band do it? Hell no.

.

lol Linkin Park does not suck!

Bitter...:hail:

 

[ffarl]

Linkin Park sucks so bad they misspelled their own name.

 

[mishele]

Linkin Park sucks so bad they misspelled their own name.

Don't you have some work to do or something?!

 

[robbins.photo]

Linkin Park sucks so bad they misspelled their own name.

Don't you have some work to do or something?!

I guess my question would be if we finally figured out where Lincoln parked, why is it we still don't know who's buried in Grant's tomb?

 

[ffarl]

I consider it my duty to educate folks on what constitutes good music. I mean jesus, what if a young kid got on here and started listening to linkin park? Next thing you know it might be Five finger death punch, or even My chemical romance! Do you really want to be responsible for that?

 

[pixmedic]

I consider it my duty to educate folks on what constitutes good music. I mean jesus, what if a young kid got on here and started listening to linkin park? Next thing you know it might be Five finger death punch, or even My chemical romance! Do you really want to be responsible for that?

or even :shudder: nickleback.....