50D vs T2i

[mrelsewhere]

Because I want a better AF system, I'm seriously considering switching from the T2i to the 50D (as opposed to the 60D which costs $150 more and has video, which I don't need). As has been said in other forums: "In its favour, the EOS 50D is a much tougher and quicker camera. It boasts a magnesium alloy shell which will better handle the knocks, and considerably quicker 6.3fps continuous shooting. The AF system may also have 9-points, but all are more sensitive cross-type sensors (with lens micro-adjustment) and you'll be framing with a bigger and brighter penta-prism optical viewfinder. There's also an upper LCD information screen, a PC-sync port for connection to external lighting systems, a more powerful battery and an optional Wifi transmitter. It is in short, a much more professional DSLR. As an older model though, the EOS 50D is lacking some bells and whistles of the latest models, most notably with no movie mode of any description. The EOS 550D / T2i also features a more sophisticated metering system and that wider screen, although the 3in VGA screen of the 50D still looks great. The 550D / T2i also boasts three extra Megapixels, but the 15.1 of the 50D will be sufficient for many."

Here's my question: Would I notice the loss of 3MP? I'm a hobbyist getting into 8x10 portrait photography in a serious way. Thanks! (And I'm sorry if this is a repeat post. For some reason, the forum search function isn't working for me.)

 

[jaomul]

The 3mp is of very little significance and the 50D is better at all you mentioned above.15mp can give a high quality 10x15 inch print at 300 ppi. It may seem like a contradiction but in my opinion the 550D image quality is better side by side with the 50D when all other aspects are equal (correct focus, metering etc)

 

[MLeeK]

Considering billboards were shot with 2 and 3mp cameras? More megapixels are irrelevant. No, you will not feel the loss of the MP.
However, being a 50D owner... If the magnesium alloy body and sealing aren't your need, I'd definitely go up to the 60D. There don't APPEAR to be a lot of advantages or changes, but there definitely was a few good changes.
It's not really an upgrade of any sort in the overall scheme of things. You are making a unilateral move and basically throwing whatever money you have spent and can't recoup off the T2i away.
Further, if the difference is only $150? Why buy an outdated camera that you'll feel the pinch on faster than spending the extra little bit.
I love my 50D, but if you are "upgrading" from the T2i? It's not an upgrade. Now if you want to UPGRADE from the T2i skip both and go to the 7D. Especially for the focus system. That's a bigger jump in price though.

 

[mrelsewhere]

It's not really an upgrade of any sort in the overall scheme of things. You are making a unilateral move and basically throwing whatever money you have spent and can't recoup off the T2i away. Further, if the difference is only $150? Why buy an outdated camera that you'll feel the pinch on faster than spending the extra little bit. I love my 50D, but if you are "upgrading" from the T2i? It's not an upgrade. Now if you want to UPGRADE from the T2i skip both and go to the 7D. Especially for the focus system. That's a bigger jump in price though.

Thanks, MLeek. That makes a lot of sense. If I could ask one more question...Would you take a 7D over a 5D Mark I, if video weren't important to you?

 

[MLeeK]

It's not really an upgrade of any sort in the overall scheme of things. You are making a unilateral move and basically throwing whatever money you have spent and can't recoup off the T2i away. Further, if the difference is only $150? Why buy an outdated camera that you'll feel the pinch on faster than spending the extra little bit. I love my 50D, but if you are "upgrading" from the T2i? It's not an upgrade. Now if you want to UPGRADE from the T2i skip both and go to the 7D. Especially for the focus system. That's a bigger jump in price though.

Thanks, MLeek. That makes a lot of sense. If I could ask one more question...Would you take a 7D over a 5D Mark I, if video weren't important to you?

I have never used the video on my cameras, but someday I might... Nah, probably not! LOL!
Yes, I'd take the 7D over the original 5D. I often opt for the 7D over the 5D2 even. It's focus system is INCREDIBLY better than that of either of the 5D's. If you are looking to improve the focus system the 5D is a BIG backwards step. Don't get me wrong, it's still an awesome camera but it is definitely better suited to studio and GOOD lighting conditions. There is a single cross type focus in it. The end. That's it. I shoot a lot of sports and the focus system kills me in the 5D cameras.

Take this with a grain of salt: It sounds to me like you just want to upgrade. You have discovered that the rebel line is an entry level and feel like you have to get more bigger better. Yes, it's entry level but it's an awesome camera with amazing capabilities. Why are you feeling you have a focus need? I'd like to see the problems you are getting. Reason: I think they can be fixed. I doubt that they are a focus system problem, but PROBABLY setting and just experience related. I have a feeling that you could get some help in overcoming the problems you are having by just showing us some examples of your problem along with the original camera settings on the image.

 

[Destin]

It's not really an upgrade of any sort in the overall scheme of things. You are making a unilateral move and basically throwing whatever money you have spent and can't recoup off the T2i away. Further, if the difference is only $150? Why buy an outdated camera that you'll feel the pinch on faster than spending the extra little bit. I love my 50D, but if you are "upgrading" from the T2i? It's not an upgrade. Now if you want to UPGRADE from the T2i skip both and go to the 7D. Especially for the focus system. That's a bigger jump in price though.

Thanks, MLeek. That makes a lot of sense. If I could ask one more question...Would you take a 7D over a 5D Mark I, if video weren't important to you?

Depends 100% on what you shoot. Portraits or weddings, or landscapes I'd take the 5d all day. Sports or Journalism, 7d wins in my book. The 7d has wayyy better AF, and is built like a freakin tank. I've never heard a good thing said about the 5d's (I or II) AF system. Also, the 5d series is currently all plastic bodies. It's essentially cramming a full frame sensor into a slightly larger t2i body.

 

[MLeeK]

Thanks, MLeek. That makes a lot of sense. If I could ask one more question...Would you take a 7D over a 5D Mark I, if video weren't important to you?

Depends on the situation, but if it is anything that you need a strong focus system in? THe 5d2 falls short. sports, action, LOW light. Now for weddings, portraits and things of that nature? I'd take the 5D2 long before the 7D. You are talking focus issues, the 5D2 has some real shortcomings in it's focus system.

 

[mrelsewhere]

I like shooting at dusk because the images have such life and depth. But I've noticed that the lower the light the harder it is to focus. I don't trust manual focusing because it's guess-work. When I want the absolute precision of pupils in focus, when I use Live View mode and magnification. Unfortunately, that's very time-consuming and I'm often forced to resort to using back-button autofocus.

I took the photo below yesterday at 5:45 pm. Settings: ISO 250, f/1.4, 1/60. The photo is untouched except that I've turned down the exposure a bit (in iPhoto) because on camera I'd added two stops of exposure comp. I took a dozen pics in this light (with various exposure settings) and they all came out a bit blurry in the face. What am I doing wrong? I'd welcome some advice. Thanks!

Full body shot:

Crop of her face:

 

[Overread]

The 60D, whilst sharing the same name as the 50D isn't an upgrade nor a "newer" camera over the 50D. The 60D represents a split in the midrange cameras by Canon into a lower end (the 60D) and upper end (the 7D) lines. As such the 50D retains many features, as listed above, which the 60D lacks; this makes the choice between the two a little grey as whilst the 60D is the newer design, it takes a step back in many areas of build and performance.


As for the 7D vs the 5D series I echo the points raised that if its a serious autofocus system you want then the 7D is the best you can get without hitting the 1D series bodies; its the high level midrange performer and does its job well; however if low light high ISO work is where you want to be with portraits and weddings (as examples) then the wider angle of view of a 35mm sensor over the crop sensor and the higher usable ISOs that fullframe allows makes the 5D range a much more attractive option. Granted its AF is nothing special; but even in low light the 7D will still have difficulties.

Remember also that the midrange bodies (50D, 7D, 5D) have bigger viewfinders and clearer images for them; so whilst manual focusing is still harder than in the film days (when there were manual focusing aids in the camera) you can still get a bonus over the smaller rebel viewfinders.

I think you still need to sit down and work out two key details before more talk of bodies. The first is the specific limitations that you are experiencing and the specific conditions you shoot in (as well as the effect you want to create); then work out your total budget to work with. Even if its a rough figure with those two sets of details you can start to make better choices; might be that a different lens or even a flash might well help you out considerably (for example many speedlite flash units have AF aids built into them for lowlight AF work - not to mention that effective flash use can help overcome exposure limitations when working in poorer lighting).



As for the picture you're showing I'm guessing 2 things went wrong. First if you used the middle AF point on her body then that is where the focus is - you should either have used an upper AF point on her face to lock focus there or manually adjusted the focus to the face not the tummy.

The second factor is aperture - at f1.4 you have a tiny depth of field so the focus really must be nailed; otherwise the depth of field is so shallow that you can easily get points out of focus (eg you might shoot a persons face and get one eye in focus and the other out of focus). In this shot the angle your shooting at means that the focus on the middle ground of the person results in a lack of depth of field to cover from that point all the way out to the face and eyes.
Personally in poor lighting I would boost the ISO up to ISO 400 or even 800, shutter speed isn't too bad for handholding a short lens and if the model is still, and then let you use a slightly smaller aperture for a bit more depth of field - if that isn't possible then check your focus and make sure its in the right place.

 

[mrelsewhere]

Overread, you're absolutely right. Looking again very closely at the image, I see now that the head and feet are more out of focus than the belly. The belly still isn't 100% in focus, but it is better. I could have sworn I had selected her eyes, but I must've missed. A lot.

I'm still discovering my limitations - with my skill/experience and with the camera's ability. At the moment my highest priority is getting more focused faces/pupils. On a shoot, I'd like to be able to think less about focus - and avoid Live View w/ magnification altogether - so that I can think about my surroundings and the model's poses. For once I'd like to be able to look through the viewfinder, put the red dot on a pupil, reframe my shot, and not wonder if it's actually focused. I hope the AV/ISO adjustments you suggested will help. Otherwise, I'm gonna start thinking it's my camera's autofocus system...

I love the Rebel, but some things are starting to irk this perfectionist who wants everything: 1) cropped sensor 2) limited lens selection 3) loud shutter 4) slow shutter 5) camera body balance/feel. I'm just afraid for my wallet.

 

[MTVision]

Thanks, MLeek. That makes a lot of sense. If I could ask one more question...Would you take a 7D over a 5D Mark I, if video weren't important to you?

Depends on the situation, but if it is anything that you need a strong focus system in? THe 5d2 falls short. sports, action, LOW light. Now for weddings, portraits and things of that nature? I'd take the 5D2 long before the 7D. You are talking focus issues, the 5D2 has some real shortcomings in it's focus system.

I think back button focusing in more precise than live view. Just my opinion, but with live view there seems to more of a chance of losing focus when hitting the shutter button. I agree with Overread that you should have boosted your ISO in low lighting then maybe you could've closed down your lens more. It can be difficult to nail focus at f/1.4. The slightest movement will cause you to lose focus.

 

[MTVision]

Overread, you're absolutely right. Looking again very closely at the image, I see now that the head and feet are more out of focus than the belly. The belly still isn't 100% in focus, but it is better. I could have sworn I had selected her eyes, but I must've missed. A lot.

I'm still discovering my limitations - with my skill/experience and with the camera's ability. At the moment my highest priority is getting more focused faces/pupils. On a shoot, I'd like to be able to think less about focus - and avoid Live View w/ magnification altogether - so that I can think about my surroundings and the model's poses. For once I'd like to be able to look through the viewfinder, put the red dot on a pupil, reframe my shot, and not wonder if it's actually focused. I hope the AV/ISO adjustments you suggested will help. Otherwise, I'm gonna start thinking it's my camera's autofocus system...

I love the Rebel, but some things are starting to irk this perfectionist who wants everything: 1) cropped sensor 2) limited lens selection 3) loud shutter 4) slow shutter 5) camera body balance/feel. I'm just afraid for my wallet.

Warning: I may be wrong - With a model who is standing still couldn't you lock your focus on her eyes with the back button method then recompose and not lose focus?

 

[Overread]

I love the Rebel, but some things are starting to irk this perfectionist who wants everything: 1) cropped sensor 2) limited lens selection 3) loud shutter 4) slow shutter 5) camera body balance/feel. I'm just afraid for my wallet.

1) Cropped sensor is the same for the 50D, 7D, 60D - the 5D series will give you the fullframe sensor; whilst the 1D series has fullframe sensor bodies and 1.3crop sensor bodies.

2) In what way are the lenses limited? A crop sensor camera can take any EFS and EF lens on the market so its range is just as big as the fullframe cameras - plus you've the EFS lenses as well.

4) How do you mean by slow shutter - rebels are pretty snappy with the shutter normally; of course if you're shutter speeds are slow then you'll get less FPS, but the actual engagement of the shutter should still be just as fast.

5) Have you tried a battery grip? Might save your budget on a new body and leave more for lighting and lenses at this stage - whilst giving you a bit more bulk to the body.

I think back button focusing in more precise than live view. Just my opinion, but with live view there seems to more of a chance of losing focus when hitting the shutter button. I agree with Overread that you should have boosted your ISO in low lighting then maybe you could've closed down your lens more. It can be difficult to nail focus at f/1.4. The slightest movement will cause you to lose focus.

Live view with the magnified image option when viewing is far more accurate than backbutton AF control - however it relies upon you having both a static camera (tripod) and a static subject; otherwise at 5* or 10* liveview magnification the accuracy you gain you lose by motions of your body/subjects body. That is typically when AF comes into its own.




As an idea here is how I control my AF setup:
1) Backbutton AF - that is the AF engages only when the * button on the back of the camera is pressed (on midrange bodies you gain a dedicated AF button on the back for this). This means that the shutter has no part in AF control at all.

2) Continuous AF mode - I've not set my camera to single shot AF in ages; Ai-servo is where I live and if I want oneshot AF I just hold down the * button to get the focus; then release my finger from it. I can then press the shutter and the AF won't engage - thus giving me oneshot AF mode.

3) If I'm using a lens with fulltime manual focusing I can even shift instantly into manual focusing mode without having to fiddle finding the AF switch on the lens. Just don't press the * button - AF won't engage and I can adjust the focus manually on the lens itself. Great for when the AF finds it hard to get a lockon to a certain subject in certain conditions; or when I want to use focus and recompose (since re-composing will shift the plane of focus and there is a good chance that the depth of field might fall outside of the subject I want in focus; if I don't adjust the focus after recomposing)

 

[MLeeK]

So I typed this big long answer to all of this... and my entirely too fast moving fingers hit a wrong button and the whole darned computer shut down on me. Go figure.

As I suspected, your focus issues would not be fixed by a different camera or lens. They have to do with the aperture you are using and shutter speed.

If you look at the steps in the image I THINK your focus falls just short.
What focus points are you using? Are you using one or all of them?

At f/1.4 depth of field is so shallow that if you are off in the slightest in ANY way your focus is going to fall short or long. It's HARD to shoot at f/1.4 and you have to be pretty good at focus to begin with before you can nail f/1.4. Besides the aperture there are other things working against you in this image.
The shutter speed at 1/60 is good for hand held if you are incredibly steady AND if your subject is still life. With a live subject the chance of you having the slightest shake or her breathing is too much, you wont' get SHARP very often. In this situation I would never drop below 1/125 for my shutter speed. That is my bottom line for hand held and a live subject. My personal bottom line for hand held still life is 1/80-and a prayer. Your subject is standing still and posing so at 1/125 you should be fine, however if she were moving (such as modeling shoots where the model is moving quickly from one pose to the next) I would shoot at no less than 1/250 to avoid blur from any movement.

Focusing and recomposing at f/1.4 is pretty much not an option. Think about this: when you move your head side to side or up and down your nose's position can be a fraction of an inch behind the where it started before you turned or tilted. That changes your distance from the camera to the subject. With a very minute depth of field you can't afford a change of a fraction of an inch. It changes the focus.

As overread pointed out where you lock your focus point is important. Focus falls 1/3 in front of the focus point and 2/3 behind. In this image your subject is tilted so that she has one eye closer to you. Lock on the inside corner of that eye. The 1/3 before the focus point covers the first eye and the 2/3 behind covers the other. You should be using one focus point and toggling it to where you want the focus to lock. In this case probably your top focus point or the next one down.

Lastly back button focus has been mentioned: YES! It will change your focus completely to get it off your shutter button! You won't be able to focus and recompose using it any more than you can if you were focusing using the shutter button, but it will definitely improve your focus.

As you are trying to master focus at 1.4 these would be my recommendations: First make sure you are paying close attention to your shutter speed and it's not dropping below 1/125 for a live subject. Use a tripod-there is no moving out of the focus that way. Shoot with extra room in the shot. That will back you up further. The depth of field increases as the distance from the subject to the camera increases. Plus it leaves you the extra space you need in an image if you want to print it to 8x10 crop. Use one focus point and lock it on the inside of the eye. And lastly try out using back button focus. It will be awkward at first, but you will get easier! And it will improve your focus issues!

 

[mrelsewhere]

MTVision: when it doesn't struggle with low light, Live View seems to be more precise. That is, with magnification, I can verify that the face is in focus before and after the shot is taken. But...and here's where you may have something...there does seem to more of a chance of losing focus and/or of missing a shot because of shutter lag. In Live View the shutter is so slow and noisy that often I can't tell at what moment a picture is being taken. Or even how many pictures are being taken. It's such a pain.

Overread: I don't really have a budget for upgrading the camera body right now. I was just thinking of swapping for the 5D because in retrospect I think I'd have liked it better had I chosen it over the 550D to begin with. But at this point - if it's not an upgrade - the cost/hassle of switching seems silly. My next purchase(s) will likely be a battery grip, Speedlite, 15-85mm lens. My next move may be full frame - the 5D mark II, a camera I rented this summer and absolutely loved - but then I do like the sounds of that 7D autofocus system...