Bridal

[camz]

Mark, I'm not jumping here in to pick on you. But it really isn't about us at all - it's all about our clients. Our clients work hard with their wedding day details from the ring to the shoes to the cake to the bouqet to the flowers to the reception decor to the wedding party attire...and probably one of the most important is the bride's dress.

Isn't it just plain ol simple to include the whole wedding dress in the shot? It may not be taboo in your circle, but I think by cutting it out degrades a key variable of the wedding. I don't see the argument here seriously...

 

[Mark_McCall]

Mark, I'm not jumping here in to pick on you. But it really isn't about us at all - it's all about our clients. Our clients work hard with their wedding day details from the ring to the shoes to the cake to the bouqet to the flowers to the reception decor to the wedding party attire...and probably one of the most important is the bride's dress.

Isn't it just plain ol simple to include the whole wedding dress in the shot? It may not be taboo in your circle, but I think by cutting it out degrades a key variable of the wedding. I don't see the argument here seriously...

Beauty is in the eye of the checkbook holder.
As I mentioned earlier, you have to satisfy Mom, who's paying for everything. As business people, we'd be remiss if we didn't.
But to think that every shot must show the entire dress is crazy. Some of our highest sellers don't even include half the dress.

I have plenty of images showing the entire dress. Probably 50-60 in the entire session.
The general feeling is that we have to include the entire dress in the shot. Where did that rule come from? Does anyone know? My guess is no.
I've never found it in any wedding book.
It most likely came from photographers who worked before us.

I shoot these sessions every day in my studio and outdoors. I cannot remember the last time my sales girl had a complaint on the crop of the dress. It simple doesn't happen because we offer both, and we sell both, tight and loose crops.

You can bet your boots Grandma wants a closer cropped pic.
Watch this video of me shooting a bridal. I've got full length and cropped images.
I sold only one print of a full length. Even that shot didn't have the entire veil in the shot. Every other image sold was a tighter crop.

 

[camz]

Nice video and nice shots Mark - I'm sure it made a wonderful spread. Finally I got to see somewhat of a whole series of you work.

If you have 50-60 other shots with the whole dress included, well that just changes the story - you just gave your clients a bunch of options. Posting just this single picture with the dress cut-off left it for interpretation as only portion of the session was revealed(not even the highlights). This shot didn't do your session justice at all as I don't find it appealing.

You left me hanging again , I'd really love to see the whole session =).

 

[Kerbouchard]

Nice video.

Just got one question. Was this an actual wedding or was it staged? The reason I ask is I am surprised to see you wearing jeans for a wedding.

As far as this particular image, again, the dress is only one of the issues. Composition, posing, white balance, etc all make this shot a failure. Quite honestly, I'm a bit surprised that you would even show this image as an example of your work.

There is a saying out there that the difference between a great photographer and an average photographer is that the great photographers don't show you their bad shots. I'm surprised you chose to show this one, irregardless of what your fellow judges said.

 

[penfolderoldo]

It is indeed a nice video, and the resulting shots are really nice.

 

[Mark_McCall]

If you have 50-60 other shots with the whole dress included, well that just changes the story - you just gave your clients a bunch of options. Posting just this single picture with the dress cut-off left it for interpretation as only portion of the session was revealed(not even the highlights).

As business people, photographers have to please our clients, otherwise we wouldn't be in business.
I just don't feel cropping into the dress is a criminal offense, neither do judges, neither do clients. The only time you'll get a complaint from a client is if every image was cropped into the dress.
I was saying earlier, Moms love full lengths, showing the back of the gown.

In the video above, Tara purchased a 24x36 (full frame) textured e-surface print which didn't even include all of the veil. If you watch closely, you'll only find 3 images where we did include the entire gown/veil.

I'm saying that for the benefit of those reading who may be thinking about getting into weddings or bridal portraits.
It's not a crime, and no one is going to hold you hostage for cropping into the dress. You'll not find a written rule against it anywhere. Or at least I haven't seen it in my career.

Was this an actual wedding or was it staged? The reason I ask is I am surprised to see you wearing jeans for a wedding.

Neither.
It's a bridal portrait session, (mentioned in the video description), typically shot a month before the wedding.
A wear a dark grey or black suit when shooting a wedding.

As far as this particular image, again, the dress is only one of the issues. Composition, posing, white balance, etc all make this shot a failure.

I'm going to surmise that we have differing definitions of failure.
*Masters Portfolio
*General Collection
*Highest scoring print in SPPPA
*20x24 on masonite purchased by client.
Failure? I'll take your word for it.

Again, I don't know if the image is good, bad, mediocre, because I simply don't know.
If you read the entire thread, never hyped it one way or the other. I mentioned it's accolades but those were awarded to the image by people other than myself.

At the end of the day, what matters is what the client and her checkbook thinks.

 

[Kerbouchard]

I'm going to surmise that we have differing definitions of failure.
*Masters Portfolio
*General Collection
*Highest scoring print in SPPPA
*20x24 on masonite purchased by client.
Failure? I'll take your word for it.

I was on facebook a few minutes ago. Somebody had posted an i-phone pic of a blurry kid. It had 19 likes. There is no accounting for people's tastes.

There was a recent article about an image that sold for over 4 million dollars. By most accounts, that would be a successful shoot for the photographer, except the image was crap. Meet The World's Most Expensive Photo, Part II : The Picture Show : NPR

Just because an image sells for a lot of money or a few people declare it 'great' doesn't mean it is.

I refuse to buy into your Ellsworth Toohey outlook on photography.

 

[tirediron]

Beauty is in the eye of the checkbook holder.
As I mentioned earlier, you have to satisfy Mom, who's paying for everything.

Really? I can't remember the last time I shot (or even heard of a wedding) done in the "parent's of the bride pay for everything" tradition. All of the weddings I've shot in the last several years (granted, not a huge number) have been paid for by the couple themselves.

 

[Mark_McCall]

I can't remember the last time I shot (or even heard of a wedding) done in the "parent's of the bride pay for everything" tradition. All of the weddings I've shot in the last several years (granted, not a huge number) have been paid for by the couple themselves.

Mother and Father of the bride traditionally pay for everything photographically.
I've done a few whereas the couple paid for their own photographs. When I have, it's either an older couple or second time around type unions.


George,
We have different opinions on what constitutes failure.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

At the end of the day, what matters is what the client and her checkbook thinks.

 

[raider]

old photography styles bore me... nice pic, a little dark though. the train doesn't bother me as much as the lighting.

 

[camz]

If you have 50-60 other shots with the whole dress included, well that just changes the story - you just gave your clients a bunch of options. Posting just this single picture with the dress cut-off left it for interpretation as only portion of the session was revealed(not even the highlights).

As business people, photographers have to please our clients, otherwise we wouldn't be in business.
I just don't feel cropping into the dress is a criminal offense, neither do judges, neither do clients. The only time you'll get a complaint from a client is if every image was cropped into the dress.
I was saying earlier, Moms love full lengths, showing the back of the gown.

In the video above, Tara purchased a 24x36 (full frame) textured e-surface print which didn't even include all of the veil. If you watch closely, you'll only find 3 images where we did include the entire gown/veil.

I'm saying that for the benefit of those reading who may be thinking about getting into weddings or bridal portraits.
It's not a crime, and no one is going to hold you hostage for cropping into the dress. You'll not find a written rule against it anywhere. Or at least I haven't seen it in my career.
.

Thanks for engaging in the discussion btw and voicing where you're coming from, I really appreciate it.

You should see my work Mark. I have tilts, lens flares, harsh lighting, dumpsters in wedding pictures, drenched brides, nude brides etc. There's no doubt Mark that rules do not apply to many things presently in photography, even with something minute as a cut off dress. I get what your saying about rules.

My impression of your initial photo has to do with patterns and expectations of the genre. TBH, my impression of your work leans towards the traditional style photography(which I appreciate) and having that particular impression in mind, certain expectations were manifested by me. And in traditional style photography having a shot where ~ 95% of the dress was included by having the dress train cut-off establishes a big no no in my brain. Has nothing to do with rules in a book, rather then the genre I was tuned into.

On the flipside, modern style photography to me is very much more free of rules. If I were to be tuned in to that particular genre and saw a picture of a bride soaked drenched from punch and had some modern flare ligthing to accent it and had some type of provacative pose while she wears yellow shoes, well I'm sure a picture of that type would break way more rules then your cut off dress trail. However, going back to the original picture that you posted told me it had a traditoinal pose, traditional feel, everything screamed traditional therefore having a cutt of dress train(without including the other elements) did nothing for its appeal and fit the pattern IMHO. Considering the genre and your style, what it was screaming to me was to include the whole dress. It was longing for it. Seriously I couldn't think of anything else when I was looking at the shot.

Like I said it was up for interpretation as only one shot was posted from the series.

 

[ondro]

this picture seems to me a little bit underexposed. its nothing special in my opinion