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Concerning the Exposure Debate... (i'm gonna get flamed!)

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Bitter Jeweler said:
It was actually really pretty good. You also had to spend time in an instant messenger, but you never knew if you were chatting with a real person, or a game character. They set it up so you would chat with other players a level below you, to help guide them.

They shut the game down when 9/11 happened. I don't think a game like this will ever come to fruition again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_(video_game)

But dude, it came with Internet explorer on the disc! How could you support that? :lol:
 
o hey tyler said:
But dude, it came with Internet explorer on the disc! How could you support that? :lol:

But actually it does sound kinda cool, and no it probably won't happen again. Although with the prominence of unlimited texting... You've got me thinking.
 
There's a difference between under exposing in the camera and printing the image dark.

In The Camera

Film which is exposed per the manufacturer recommendation (if any) will get the most tonal information on the film with the most accurate color rendering and the least noise. Speaking very roughly. Adjusting exposure and processing will do several things: change the characteristic curve, change the color rendering, change the degree of grain. More or less. Film "fails" in subtle and complex ways which may achieve a desirable result.

Digital sensors "fail" in three ways: throw information off the bottom, throw information off the top, introduce ugly looking digital noise. The artistic possibilities are rather thinner.

With digital, the analog of film push/pull processing to to expose correctly and adjust the characteristic curve in post, and remap colors around as desired. If what you want is a bunch of plaid noise and/or blocked up shadows or highlights, by all means exposé badly in camera. You will NOT be adjusting characteristic curves, you will typically NOT be having any desirable effects in color rendering, you will NOT be adjusting film grain appearance. It's digital noise and blocked up crud all day long.


In The Print

This is completely separate from in the camera. Yes, a dark and moody look is a thing, so is a blown out skies, the histogram can look like whatever you want it to, it's art. It's also got very little to do with the original exposure. With film there is a connection, to a greater or lesser degree. With digital the connection is, or at any rate can be, much more tenuous.


In Conclusion

​When someone makes a point about in camera exposure, some remark about the print does not constitute a rebuttal, and vice versa. There are at least two separate topics here and as far as I can tell nobody knows it.

Also, film and digital act differently. They're remarkably similar when you're staying inside the manufacturer specs, but they diverge with great rapidity once you start over or under driving the system. The "failure" modes are light years apart.
 
The only reason I aim for "correct" exposure when shooting is so that I have as much data to work from as possible in post. After that I don't care. If my vision is for something bright and I underexpose I get a lot of noise by the time I've pulled it all up in post which sucks. If I'm going for something dark if I've burt it out to white then I can't pull it down to grey without large areas of uniform grey, which also sucks.

I always shoot RAW and I always adjust exposure in post, even it's just a tiny tweak. You cannot get expoure perfectly to your liking (unless you just don't care) in camera except by luck - there just isn't a mechanism for it. So for me there sort of is a "correct" exposure, but it's a band where I can get what I want in post without noticeably degrating my image. A stop either way doesn't matter. Two stops I can probably cope with. More than that and it's delete time.


Seems to me the reason why this is argued over so much is threefold;

1) Some people are genuinely trying to make art, not capture life as it is. You wouldn't call a painting under or over expososed just because the artist used a lot of paint that was above or below 18% grey, and you wouldn't say it had poor tonal range just because there were was no pure white or pure black paint in it either. Maybe someone taking photos that suit thier artistic style makes something good in your eyes, maybe not, but if they're happy then all is well.

2) Some people just want to capture reality as acuately as possible to the way they saw it with their eyes (also a perfectly valid aim while taking photos) but don't understand / don't like what people are doing when they're doing #1, and cry under/over exposure because they can't look past the technical

3) Some poeple are just incompentent and claim #1 when trying for #2 and fail. Often under/over exposure is mentioned because it's kinder and / or easier to say "They're underexposed" than "Everything about your photo it sucks. I can't begin to explain how to get from here to good."
 
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There's a difference between under exposing in the camera and printing the image dark.

In The Camera

Film which is exposed per the manufacturer recommendation (if any) will get the most tonal information on the film with the most accurate color rendering and the least noise. Speaking very roughly. Adjusting exposure and processing will do several things: change the characteristic curve, change the color rendering, change the degree of grain. More or less. Film "fails" in subtle and complex ways which may achieve a desirable result.

Digital sensors "fail" in three ways: throw information off the bottom, throw information off the top, introduce ugly looking digital noise. The artistic possibilities are rather thinner.

With digital, the analog of film push/pull processing to to expose correctly and adjust the characteristic curve in post, and remap colors around as desired. If what you want is a bunch of plaid noise and/or blocked up shadows or highlights, by all means exposé badly in camera. You will NOT be adjusting characteristic curves, you will typically NOT be having any desirable effects in color rendering, you will NOT be adjusting film grain appearance. It's digital noise and blocked up crud all day long.


In The Print

This is completely separate from in the camera. Yes, a dark and moody look is a thing, so is a blown out skies, the histogram can look like whatever you want it to, it's art. It's also got very little to do with the original exposure. With film there is a connection, to a greater or lesser degree. With digital the connection is, or at any rate can be, much more tenuous.


In Conclusion

​When someone makes a point about in camera exposure, some remark about the print does not constitute a rebuttal, and vice versa. There are at least two separate topics here and as far as I can tell nobody knows it.

Also, film and digital act differently. They're remarkably similar when you're staying inside the manufacturer specs, but they diverge with great rapidity once you start over or under driving the system. The "failure" modes are light years apart.

This was more or less my point... get the "Negative" or digital image the maximum amount of "information" it can hold (So it doesn't limit what you can do with it)... and then print it however you want..
 
The only reason I aim for "correct" exposure when shooting is so that I have as much data to work from as possible in post. After that I don't care. If my vision is for something bright and I underexpose I get a lot of noise by the time I've pulled it all up in post which sucks. If I'm going for something dark if I've burt it out to white then I can't pull it down to grey without large areas of uniform grey, which also sucks.

I always shoot RAW and I always adjust exposure in post, even it's just a tiny tweak. You cannot get exposure perfectly to your liking (unless you just don't care) in camera except by luck - there just isn't a mechanism for it. So for me there sort of is a "correct" exposure, but it's a band where I can get what I want in post without noticeably degrating my image. A stop either way doesn't matter. Two stops I can probably cope with. More than that and it's delete time.


Seems to me the reason why this is argued over so much is threefold;

1) Some people are genuinely trying to make art, not capture life as it is. You wouldn't call a painting under or over expososed just because the artist used a lot of paint that was above or below 18% grey, and you wouldn't say it had poor tonal range just because there were was no pure white or pure black paint in it either. Maybe someone taking photos that suit thier artistic style makes something good in your eyes, maybe not, but if they're happy then all is well.

2) Some people just want to capture reality as acuately as possible to the way they saw it with their eyes (also a perfectly valid aim while taking photos) but don't understand / don't like what people are doing when they're doing #1, and cry under/over exposure because they can't look past the technical

3) Some poeple are just incompentent and claim #1 when trying for #2 and fail. Often under/over exposure is mentioned because it's kinder and / or easier to say "They're underexposed" than "Everything about your photo it sucks. I can't begin to explain how to get from here to good."

Nailed it!
 
OP... did you know that by properly exposing the image, you will get better color and saturation in the background (lights ect) and make the photos look much more colorful? If you want the people to look like zombies, that is up to you... but you can do that in post also. As an example... I took one of your photos from your "Facebook Like" thread.... and upped the exposure, contrast, and saturation a little.. to try and make it look like it had been properly exposed in the first place...


Your original is on top.... my Edit on Bottom! So really.. which one do you prefer? Which one makes the people look better? Which one has more color? Which one is more "ALIVE"?
$!8464291343_36cc45d22b_o.webp

I would also STRONGLY suggest calibrating your monitor.... (and hopefully it is a decent monitor, not a laptop display)
 
In Conclusion

​When someone makes a point about in camera exposure, some remark about the print does not constitute a rebuttal, and vice versa. There are at least two separate topics here and as far as I can tell nobody knows it.

Also, film and digital act differently. They're remarkably similar when you're staying inside the manufacturer specs, but they diverge with great rapidity once you start over or under driving the system. The "failure" modes are light years apart.

I think you make some good points. A lot of the discussion here, most likely wouldn't exist if we all understood there are two processes. Capturing the image, then reproducing it. I think, a lot of the "get it right in the camera" discussion is much the same. People want to go from capturing the image to printing it in the same time it takes to click the shutter.
 
OP... did you know that by properly exposing the image, you will get better color and saturation in the background (lights ect) and make the photos look much more colorful? If you want the people to look like zombies, that is up to you... but you can do that in post also. As an example... I took one of your photos from your "Facebook Like" thread.... and upped the exposure, contrast, and saturation a little.. to try and make it look like it had been properly exposed in the first place...


Your original is on top.... my Edit on Bottom! So really.. which one do you prefer? Which one makes the people look better? Which one has more color? Which one is more "ALIVE"?


I would also STRONGLY suggest calibrating your monitor.... (and hopefully it is a decent monitor, not a laptop display)

Wow, I had no idea that those were the OP's photos. In light of that, the guys absolutely slamming them... that's just not right.

As far as the exposure vs art discussion, I don't see how those pictures could be construed as art. Even still, the exposure either works or it don't. Not all art is good art. If the public doesn't appreciate your art, tough cookies. That's just the way it is. You have to decide as an artist, if you're producing your art to satisfy the public or yourself. If you're misunderstood..... so what.

As a professional, you're going to have a hard time getting people to pay you what you "think you're worth" if you insist on your art and not what the customer wants.
 
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OP... did you know that by properly exposing the image, you will get better color and saturation in the background (lights ect) and make the photos look much more colorful? If you want the people to look like zombies, that is up to you... but you can do that in post also. As an example... I took one of your photos from your "Facebook Like" thread.... and upped the exposure, contrast, and saturation a little.. to try and make it look like it had been properly exposed in the first place...


Your original is on top.... my Edit on Bottom! So really.. which one do you prefer? Which one makes the people look better? Which one has more color? Which one is more "ALIVE"?
View attachment 36127

I would also STRONGLY suggest calibrating your monitor.... (and hopefully it is a decent monitor, not a laptop display)

Ummm... those aren't my photos! :)

You meant the OP from the link in my OP. Just to be clear. :)
 
There's a difference between under exposing in the camera and printing the image dark.

In The Camera

Film which is exposed per the manufacturer recommendation (if any) will get the most tonal information on the film with the most accurate color rendering and the least noise. Speaking very roughly. Adjusting exposure and processing will do several things: change the characteristic curve, change the color rendering, change the degree of grain. More or less. Film "fails" in subtle and complex ways which may achieve a desirable result.

Digital sensors "fail" in three ways: throw information off the bottom, throw information off the top, introduce ugly looking digital noise. The artistic possibilities are rather thinner.

With digital, the analog of film push/pull processing to to expose correctly and adjust the characteristic curve in post, and remap colors around as desired. If what you want is a bunch of plaid noise and/or blocked up shadows or highlights, by all means exposé badly in camera. You will NOT be adjusting characteristic curves, you will typically NOT be having any desirable effects in color rendering, you will NOT be adjusting film grain appearance. It's digital noise and blocked up crud all day long.


In The Print

This is completely separate from in the camera. Yes, a dark and moody look is a thing, so is a blown out skies, the histogram can look like whatever you want it to, it's art. It's also got very little to do with the original exposure. With film there is a connection, to a greater or lesser degree. With digital the connection is, or at any rate can be, much more tenuous.


In Conclusion

​When someone makes a point about in camera exposure, some remark about the print does not constitute a rebuttal, and vice versa. There are at least two separate topics here and as far as I can tell nobody knows it.

Also, film and digital act differently. They're remarkably similar when you're staying inside the manufacturer specs, but they diverge with great rapidity once you start over or under driving the system. The "failure" modes are light years apart.

You may have been writing about those things and others may have, but I have been referring strictly to in-camera exposure (well, yes, and how it affects the final image after editing).

Editing/grading is a powerful tool, but I think too many in this day and age use it as a crutch. On almost every shoot I am on as a cinematographer these days someone says of a difficulty framing, lighting, exposure or pretty much any thing else photographic: "Don't worry, we'll fix it in post". Or of a look striven for in camera I often get - "oh, don't worry, we'll do that in post"...

The fact of the matter is you can't always do it "in post". Or at least do it the same. I'll give you an example.

I shot a TV series and the first 1/2 hour of the first episode was a flashback to the time the character spent in a jail in Venezuela. I had an idea that I pitched to the director, who loved it: handheld, warmish, very contrasty and SUPERgrainy. The producers weren't so sure. We were set to shoot with the Sony F900 cine-alta (the most expensive camera at the time), but I asked the producers to let me test 6 different cameras. At first they said, "Oh, don't worry, we'll get the look you want in post." I cringed then convinced them to pay for the tests and decide after. (I told them I might be able to save them some money :) "Doing it in post" at $750/hr is costly!)

So I tested 6 cameras in bright sun at 18db (noise/grain usually used to boost the camera by adding signal to the native image to artificially brighten it - something people generally only do in extreme low light. 18db is the most "noisy" you can go on most cameras). The producers were astounded with the results: each camera's images looked radically different - the f900, their camera of choice, rendered a very ugly image, though perhaps useful in another context: green hued with a noise profile that looked like a billion pixels puking at once!

The other cameras rendered images that were very different though not ugly. The producers pointed at one image and said - we love it, that's the one! It was the camera I secretly wanted to use (the panasonic sdx 900) and would cost them about $600 less per day to shoot with over 75 days of shooting. I had saved them 45 grand and 5-10 hours at 750/hr in post. And got what I wanted. And got them hooked - when I work with them now the first thing they ask me is "what camera should we rent you." I won an award for that show - and they sent the first episode with that footage in as their sample for consideration.

The images from the sdx 900 were degraded radically, but had a beautiful "grain structure" that was kind of like B&W film like because the specks were all black - the other cameras' noise looked like coloured specks and were nowhere near as appealing. I find it a shame these days that EVERYTHING is done in post, because before, film stocks were chosen not just for their sensitivity to light, but for their characteristic curves and the different ways they each reacted to pushing, pulling, "over" and "under" exposing and pretty much everything else photographic. The camera was basically just a box that held the lens and the film, so your look depended on choices you made before shooting and were enhanced or underlined after. These days, in TV and cinema more often than not, a camera is foisted on you because of availability or budget or both. So you are limited as to what you can choose to do in camera, and, to boot, everyone has jumped on this (ironically expensive!) bandwagon of doing everything in post.

In still photography, editing is generally done by the photographer with his own computer, so the price is not a factor. But one thing I lament about digital is that often a person can only afford one camera, or 2 if they are lucky (but even then often the same brand with the same (or similar) sensor.). Because the sensor and the analog to digital converter are the equivalent of a filmstock, it means, to a degree, one is limited to the strengths and weaknesses and idiosyncrasies of one camera and only one single point of departure to get creative. (And I fully realize there are many other ways of getting creative in photography, but to me, this is one powerful tool removed from the arsenal).

So yes, film and digital are very different. But in the case of underexposure, or boosting with gain, or using high ISOs, there is still much that can be gleaned of interest from various sensors, and to say that the goal in digital photography is ALWAYS to get the most information possible is limiting yourself in the same way that shooting everything on a filmstock and ALWAYS following the manufacturer's EI does.

"In The Print

This is completely separate from in the camera. Yes, a dark and moody look is a thing, so is a blown out skies, the histogram can look like whatever you want it to, it's art. It's also got very little to do with the original exposure. With film there is a connection, to a greater or lesser degree. With digital the connection is, or at any rate can be, much more tenuous."

I disagree. The digital connection to the print is much closer than you permit, given what I wrote above. You can still have a wonky looking in camera histogram that will make beautiful images (if one is crafty) that will be completely different from doing it in a post histogram, much the way that underrating a filmstock and printing up is completely different from lowering the contrast with a knob in post. And these in-camera "processed" images will look very different from one camera to another as well. It's just that photographers, as noted above, don't always have access to different brands of cameras with different sensors. Which I think has mitigated the transition away from in-camera toward post editing.

The "failure modes" of film and digital are "light years" apart, I concur - but difference does not imply inferiority. Maybe digital is inferior in this respect (I tend to think so) - but not to the degree you believe.
 
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Honestly, your tedious stories seem to be a lot more about how awesome you are than about exposure.

What you seem to have said is, excuse my paraphrase:

On a recent project tested a bunch of cameras set to overexpose by about 3 stops, and found that they produced quite different results, one of which we felt was pretty nice and
well suited to the project, and also I am amazingly awesome.
 
Honestly, your tedious stories seem to be a lot more about how awesome you are than about exposure.

What you seem to have said is, excuse my paraphrase:

On a recent project tested a bunch of cameras set to overexpose by about 3 stops, and found that they produced quite different results, one of which we felt was pretty nice and
well suited to the project, and also I am amazingly awesome.

Sorry you feel that way. Maybe as a newbie here I am overcompensating to try and be taken seriously. You're undoubtedly right. I guess I should just let the posts speak for themselves instead of flaunting my credentials.

I'll keep a cap on that and thanks for pointing it out. But the story was illustrative, no?

(and, incidentally, boosting the gain is not overexposing)
 
jbarrettash said:
But the story was illustrative, no?

Truth be told I got a few sentences in and developed a headache from all the horn tooting. That, and it didn't really seem to relate to much in the thread.
 
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