Do you have protection?

[altitude604]

yup!

slugger here is all i need!

 

[Drake]

Couldn't you just have people sign waivers before shoots, agreeing not to sue you if their clumsy half-wit child gets run over by a train?

I don't think such an agreement would be much of a protection. In most countries/states there are certain laws that cannot be changed. Depending on your location you might not be able have a legally valid agreement saying you can't be sued if anything happens. That just might be their right, not to be taken away by any signed piece of paper.

Insurance is probably the best way to go. I do have liability insurance, it's not very expensive, at least in my country (people don't sue each other in Europe as frequent as you do in USA). Never thought I might need it in such a case though. But of course mine doesn't cover the risks of a business anyway, just private life.

 

[Destin]

A contract can have some different parts to help limit liability. Whether or not a court upholds it probably varies from place to place.

I don't see why a court wouldn't uphold it. If a person signs something saying "I understand the potential risks and agree not to sue in the event of injury or death, blah blah" .. they have taken full responsibility. They understood the risks and made the conscious choice to proceed.

Now, if one of your lights fell down and gave a kid a concussion.. that's a different story. There I could see some level of responsibility of the photog.

I totally agree, but that doesn't mean a judge will. There are tons of examples of judges throwing out contracts or agreements, etc.

I work with a mountain biking ministry (Ride to Recovery) that takes kids out mountain biking. Every kid signs a waiver that states that they can't sue us for the injury, blah blah blah.

However in all reality, the waiver doesn't mean squat in a court. It allows us to say no, you signed a waiver, sorry. But if they follow through with a lawsuit, we can be sued. But we do have very good insurance too, so we're safe.

 

[KmH]

Not yet though have been looking into it. I guess it is called something like self-insurance... paying out of pocket for losses instead of being insured. I don't think we are doing enough work to warrant carrying insurance yet.

You're right about self-insurance.
Do you have a couple million $$$'s laying around to be effectively self-insured?

 

[KmH]

Couldn't you just have people sign waivers before shoots, agreeing not to sue you if their clumsy half-wit child gets run over by a train?

You sure could.

Would the waiver be legally effective. Probably not.

Is it morally right to be conducting a business without liability insurance or the effective ablility to be self-insured?

Nope.

It might even be criminal. I think they call it fraud.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

I thought this would be a fun topic. I just wanted to give people something to think about. You can be sued whether the case has merit or not.

I was sued by my former employer, for starting my own business. He left the building I am in, and left a hole. I filled it. I didn't have a non-compete clause, or anything of the sort. He sued over stealing his customers.

The lawsuit started at $150k, and the suit changed over time. They were looking for any angle they could take. The court system sucks. Across the year this took place, we never saw a judge. We filed for summery judgements, to avoid jury by trial. Judges would rather have it go to trial, so a decision is not on their record. Long story short, We settled for $3k. If it went to trial, it could have cost $10k more.

What did it cost me? $21k.

While my example isn't photography related, it is an example of things happening that you never thought would.

So while we don't like to think of bad things happening, and the probability is that they probably won't. You need to ask yourself what happens when somebody falls down the stairs going to your basement Photography Studio for that $50 portrait session. If you suggest the location for your $20 outdoor shoot, and something happens...

 

[GeorgieGirl]

Couldn't you just have people sign waivers before shoots, agreeing not to sue you if their clumsy half-wit child gets run over by a train?

You sure could.

Would the waiver be legally effective. Probably not.

Is it morally right to be conducting a business without liability insurance or the effective ablility to be self-insured?

Nope.

It might even be criminal. I think they call it fraud.

You are a professional. Why would you be responsible for a location/ property/ landowner for a site specific location if you don't own the property; for example a wedding hall?

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Couldn't you just have people sign waivers before shoots, agreeing not to sue you if their clumsy half-wit child gets run over by a train?

You sure could.

Would the waiver be legally effective. Probably not.

Is it morally right to be conducting a business without liability insurance or the effective ablility to be self-insured?

Nope.

It might even be criminal. I think they call it fraud.

You are a professional. Why would you be responsible for a location/ property/ landowner for a site specific location if you don't own the property; for example a wedding hall?

If you suggested the location...

The wedding hall more than likely has it's own insurance, which is part of the reason they charge a fee to rent it out.
I am talking about when you are at a park, and you suggest Jane climb the tree, or take your senior pics on railroad tracks.
I picked two examples we have seen posted here frequently enough.

 

[GeorgieGirl]

And your lawyers and risk managers say get what kind of insurance for that scenario?

Not trying to be combative, just asking where this is rooted from.

 

[dmy]

I'm just getting back into photography as a profession (I worked for another photog many years ago) I have and still do own other businesses. I purchased a legal plan for self employeed about 4 years ago. included in the plan I had them review a liability waiver and tell me what to change to make it legal here in utah also it provides trial defense if they do decide to try and sue. I can give you the contact info of the agent that sold it to me if you want to PM me.

just thought I would pass it on!

 

[KmH]

The wedding hall could require you add them as an additionally insured to your business liability policy, and require you provide them a COI to prove you have done so.

Many venues including local, state and federal parks have the same requirement, and require you have at least a $2M limit.

 

[GeorgieGirl]

The wedding hall could require you add them as an additionally insured to your business liability policy, and require you provide them a COI to prove you have done so.

Many venues including local, state and federal parks have the same requirement, and require you have at least a $2M limit.

Limit for what...??? GL I imagine. What about E&O, ProL, W/C??? Sure can't be for property...

 

[GooniesNeverSayDie11]

There is a difference between being sued, and LOSING a law suit. Granted you will lose money either way ( unless you defend yourself ) but you can also counter for defamation for example., Anyone can file a law suit at anytime regardless of how frivolous ( it may be tossed out, but it can still be attempted ). Big corporations do it all the time when they counter a lawsuit to attempt to drag it out in court so that the other person will settle or give up because they can't afford to keep paying legal fees with no end in sight.

With that said, its always good to have a waiver signed, but as others said, this does not completely mean that you are clear. You can still be found negligent if you knowingly put someone in a position that you knew there was a reasonable chance that it could cause them harm ( but figured your waiver would cover you so who cares? ). You could write a more specific waiver for a specific situation though. It all depends where and how an injury occurs as well. If a venue has faulty wiring and someone gets zapped, the venue, not you. If you tell someone to stand in a hotel jacuzzi as you dangle monolights over top of them and they end up fried, its certainly your fault, although the hotel could be sued as well for allowing it to happen. If you are chaperoning kids, then you are responsible for them ( and why would anyone ever put themselves in this situation is beyond me ) It all depends on what happens, and what you know or don't know when it happens. Even with insurance, there are max amounts they cover, there are deductables etc. So nothing is fool proof. Life is a b*tch sometimes, just try your best to avoid idiotic situations.

 

[vtf]

I would also add that your current home owners policy could be in default if they discover you conducting business on the personal property they insure. Which could be made retroactive back to when you first started then they take back any payouts they had made for you on claims during this time. Then you're in default on your mortgage because you've been uninsured for so many weeks/months.
Just an example.

 

[ClickAddict]

Not sure about this as we are looking into it for my wife business she is starting on the side (non photography), but isn't one of the points of incorporating a business, other than tax purposes, is to protect vs lawsuits? They can sue the company and not you personally? So absolute worse case and someone cracks their head like Jeweler posted and you end up being found responsible your company may fold (there goes a few thousand+ in equipment) but at least they can't go after your home and savings.

Again, could be wrong and we're just looking into it now, but for the budding photographer only making this their "second" job, I'm sure they would rather just have their "company" assets at risk.