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DSLR for Videos? Old-time Dilema, Again.

Sekhar, Thank you. I will add another question to you and the others above. What about the stills on the GH2? As I said I am interested in both. My current Canon (Power Shot Sx30 IS) is neither DSLR nor DSLM, it's almost only a fancy point and shoot! and I am afraid of buying a camera that is just a bit better. I want to make sure it is much better professionally.
I think it produces good looking stills as well, but you'll need to decide yourself. Like I said, be sure to check the depth of field because that's not going to be as shallow as with larger sensors, but it could actually work in your favor depending on the kind of shots you plan to take. I suggest going to a place like Flickr and searching for GH2: you'll be able to not only check out the look of GH2 images for the situations you have in mind, but also compare GH2 with the APS-C cameras you're also considering.
 
Wow. This turned out way longer than I thought it would. Oh well – I’ve bolded what’s really important, although I advise you read all of it (painful as that is :P).

TehYoyo, Thank you for the enthusiastic reply. Oh my! I am getting total opposite replies regarding DSLR and DSLM... I am totally split between both at the moment. Seeing that video up on vimeo made me lean a lot towards the GH2, though, and with that sweet price. But I care too about the stills. I want to ask you, what do you say regarding teh tip above on the length of the video shooting on the Sony A57, for example? Is it irritably short taht I need to stop every 10 minutes or so? Are there other cameras you know of DSLR good video and still?
Sure - no problem.

Mirrorless cameras (I've never heard the term DSLM before - dunno if it's a thing) are the latest craze - which isn't a bad thing. In fact, they're quite good. They produce high quality stills and video and are compact and light - a lot of people don't like carrying around large dSLRs. I got my Sony dSLT (same as a dSLR for this particular discussion) because I didn't think I'd mind carrying it around - I can't tell you what I think as of now b/c I got it 4 hours ago in the mail (it's great so far, though :D).

One counterargument against mirrorless is that, with any lens on them, they're still unpocketable, as their size markets them to be. You'll still need to wear it on your neck or carry it in a bag of some sort (I'd recommend around the neck).

As to the video on Vimeo, you can capture that with any dSLR, from the Canon EOS Rebel T2i to the Canon 5d Mark III to the Nikon D800 (with uncompressed HDMI output) to the Sony NEX line to the Panasonic GH2.

In regards to time limits, if you're making your own short films, movies, webshows, etc, you're really not going to go over 12 minutes, or even come close (or else you're probably doing it wrong). The only time that issue has come up in a discussion I've been in is when this guy wanted to record a lacrosse game continuously. Even then, I told him just to wait for a break to make a new file. Easy. My Sony A57 can record up to 30 minutes, by the way.

Quick note about stop times and uncompressed HDMI output:
Research Magic Lantern. Now, as a Sony owner, I don't use Magic Lantern and so I haven't investigated it in-depth myself. However, from what I do know, it's a firmware (the software/program that runs on your camera) that adds extra features to a camera that users want but can't get with the standard firmware. I do believe that Magic Lantern for all Canon cameras offers uncompressed HDMI output (which you won’t use unless you’re really serious, although it’s worth looking up to see what the big deal is). Also, it handles auto-stop times the same way as the Panasonic GH2 - when it reaches the limit, it skips 3 seconds (i.e. creates a new file) and continues to record. Judge how detrimental that is to your work w/ your own judgement. It might matter to you, it might not.

As for recommendations, I was in the same boat as you (although with a smaller budget) just a few days ago. I wanted to get a dSLR that could produce good images (I wasn't going to nitpick, though - I went into it accepting that all dSLR images were good compared to what I had been seeing (i.e. point and shoot) and so that wasn't a huge issue, although features like 10 fps at full resolution pushed me towards Sony) and could record 1080p footage at 30 fps at least. I also had a few features that I was looking for (fully-articulating screen, good or cheap lens lineup, etc).

I ended going with the Sony A57 over the Canon T3i for a few reasons:
10 fps continuous shooting stills at full resolution
. Seriously. Will I use it a lot? No. Probably not. But it's so nice to have and listen to. Awesome. Go to Best Buy and compare continuous on the A57 and the T3i and you'll see.

60 fps at 1080p for slow motion (video). No other consumer dSLR has that feature.

There were a few other motivations, like being different (I like standing out, and since almost every single novice has a Rebel of some sort, I felt cool buying a Sony), wanting to use old Minolta lenses on my camera, etc.


My recommendation for you:
At this point, it really doesn't matter what you get. If you really, really want the small(er) size of a mirrorless camera, I would say get the Panasonic or the Sony NEX of your choice (choose based on what features you want/price/etc). But, I would advise you to get either the Canon Rebel T3i (which I consider the "safer" choice b/c it's so established, more support, etc.) or the Sony A57 (more risk/reward I think). A few reasons:
1) Lenses. Lenses are infinitely more important than the body. See for more.
2) Features/Expandibility. Just b/c of the larger form factor, DSLRs can do more or at least do the off-the-beaten-path things better
3) Larger sensor(like what Sekhar said)

All of that said (and if you’re this far, congrats!), keep in mind that, in the grand scheme of things, the camera and the lens doesn’t matter as much as the person who is using it. Put a newbie in front of a Canon EOS 1DX with a 24-70L, a 17L TS-E, a 50mm 1.4L, a 70-200L (a few of the nicest lenses that Canon makes), etc. etc. etc. and give a professional an iPhone 5 and I guarantee that the professional will take infinitely better pictures.
If you watched the 2008 Olympics, I’m sure you noticed the hype about the Speedo LZR Racer suit – it was supposed to go extra fast. I remember one person said something to the general extent of “I tested it. I threw it in the water and it didn’t move, so I guess I still have to swim.” The same is true of cameras. The camera is only the tool – you still gotta make pictures.
 
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Hi MidEastGal - sadly, not a lot of people have experience shooting video with both DSLRs and DSLMs, so you will hear a lot of opinions that are somewhat less than well-informed. I have shot video and stills with both types of camera, and once people go high-end mirrorless, it is very rare for them to go back.

Here is a little video-centric matrix that may be helpful:

Canon DSLR: Clip limit - 12 to 30 minutes; Video autofocus - no (except T4i); Video viewfinder - no; Silent autofocus lenses - no

Sony DSLT ("T" is for Translucent Mirror): Clip limit - 30 min; Video autofocus - yes; Video viewfinder - yes; Silent autofocus lenses - no

Panasonic DSLM: Clip limit - hours; Video autofocus - yes; Video viewfinder - yes; Silent autofocus lenses - yes

DSLMs are not perfect cameras. Although my GH2 takes fabulous stills, my old T2i was a better still camera, in my view. But, as cameras designed from the ground up for video, they are a much better blend of still and video capability than legacy DSLRs. And they are lighter in weight, smaller in size, and often less expensive.

Here is what Will Crockett at discovermirrorless.com says of the new GH3:



Again, hope that is helpful!

Bill

P.S. - it's not me calling them DSLMs, it's Panasonic ;)

P.P.S. - I didn't invent DSLT either
 
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brunerww said:
Hi MidEastGal - sadly, not a lot of people have experience shooting video with both DSLRs and DSLMs, so you will hear a lot of opinions that are somewhat less than well-informed. I have shot video and stills with both types of camera, and once people go high-end mirrorless, it is very rare for them to go back.

Here is a little video-centric matrix that may be helpful:

Canon DSLR: Clip limit - 12 to 30 minutes; Video autofocus - no (except T4i); Video viewfinder - no; Silent autofocus lenses - no

Sony DSLT ("T" is for Translucent Mirror): Clip limit - 30 min; Video autofocus - yes; Video viewfinder - yes; Silent autofocus lenses - no

Panasonic DSLM: Clip limit - hours; Video autofocus - yes; Video viewfinder - yes; Silent autofocus lenses - yes

DSLMs are not perfect cameras. Although my GH2 takes fabulous stills, my old T2i was a better still camera, in my view. But, as cameras designed from the ground up for video, they are a much better blend of still and video capability than legacy DSLRs. And they are lighter in weight, smaller in size, and often less expensive.

Here is what Will Crockett at discovermirrorless.com says of the new GH3:

YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyrGdHClmFI

Again, hope that is helpful!

Bill

P.S. - it's not me calling them DSLMs, it's Panasonic ;)

I love how your claims for people rarely going back are substantiated with data :)

Jk

The only issue I have with mirrorless for video is the relatively small range of high quality native lenses (on the level of Canon/Nikon) and how they can struggle at low light because of sensor sizes and general camera performance.

For general video shooting though the GH3 is a good choice.
 
I agree, rexbobcat - there are no statistical studies. That said, several people I respect have switched (e.g., dvxuser.com Canon moderator M. Gilden has pretty much switched for video, Will Crockett and several of the photographers at discovermirrorless have switched for stills and video or declared that their current DSLRs are the last ones they're ever going to buy:



I personally still own a Nikon DSLR and pull it out for specific purposes - but not for video :)

Cheers,

Bill

P.S. - I don't know how many of you are old enough to remember this, but this is suddenly starting to remind me of the old Tareyton advertising campaign :)

$1965tareytonad.webp
 
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brunerww said:
I agree, rexbobcat - there are no statistical studies. That said, several people I respect have switched (e.g., dvxuser.com Canon moderator M. Gilden has pretty much switched for video, Will Crockett and several of the photographers at discovermirrorless have switched for stills and video or declared that their current DSLRs are the last ones they're ever going to buy:

YouTube Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5D3bJK9cUg

I personally still own a Nikon DSLR and pull it out for specific purposes - but not for video :)

Cheers,

Bill

P.S. - I don't know how many of you are old enough to remember this, but this is suddenly starting to remind me of the old Tareyton advertising campaign :)

<img src="http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=31345"/>

I do think that mirrorless is good for video right now compared to a lot of the other options. I have a 60D and the GH2 has much less moire and is sharper in video than the 60D, but now that Canon has come out with the 5DIII which has true downsampling to reduce moire and ha dramatically better comparative ISO performance I've decided to stick with the DSLR for now. Lol
 
I agree, rexbobcat - there are no statistical studies. That said, several people I respect have switched (e.g., dvxuser.com Canon moderator M. Gilden has pretty much switched for video, Will Crockett and several of the photographers at discovermirrorless have switched for stills and video or declared that their current DSLRs are the last ones they're ever going to buy
OK, now you're pushing it. :) GH2 is great value and terrific for video, but to say (or imply as you did here) that it's better than a DSLR in general is crazy. For one thing, you're going to be stuck with electronic viewfinder, slow focusing, poor low light performance, and large depth of field. I suppose you can get by with manual focus, but depth of field in particular tends to be a big deal to indie filmmakers whose primary goal in life is to make their video look like film, and the most brain-dead way to get there is to use shallow depth of field.
 
I agree, rexbobcat - there are no statistical studies. That said, several people I respect have switched (e.g., dvxuser.com Canon moderator M. Gilden has pretty much switched for video, Will Crockett and several of the photographers at discovermirrorless have switched for stills and video or declared that their current DSLRs are the last ones they're ever going to buy
OK, now you're pushing it. :) GH2 is great value and terrific for video, but to say (or imply as you did here) that it's better than a DSLR in general is crazy. For one thing, you're going to be stuck with electronic viewfinder, slow focusing, poor low light performance, and large depth of field. I suppose you can get by with manual focus, but depth of field in particular tends to be a big deal to indie filmmakers whose primary goal in life is to make their video look like film, and the most brain-dead way to get there is to use shallow depth of field.

[sarcasm]Dude sekhar you're forgetting one thing. brunerww has not only shot stills, but he's also shot video. It's really incredible. Obviously, you're opinion is clearly less informed than his. Cuz, y'know, he's shot stills and video. Like. Wow.[/sarcasm]

Now before a flame war begins, I hope we can all agree that a full frame Nikon d800 or EOS 1DX will produce better stills and videos in the right person's hands (i.e. compare the images from the same person) especially in the areas of shallow depth of field and low light performance. Aren't a lot of people asking for a full-frame DSLM, as they've been termed? (The answer is yes)

And to brunerww, I'd appreciate it if you lose the presumption of superiority. Just for the sake of being... nice.
 
Peace. I am certainly not claiming superiority to anyone. I just feel badly for people like this and this who are surprised when they try to shoot video and their cameras shut down after 12 minutes or their autofocus doesn't work.

I apologize to anyone who was offended, but I think it is important to let people know about these limitations before they buy these cameras - instead of after they've invested their hard earned money.
 
Peace. I am certainly not claiming superiority to anyone. I just feel badly for people like this and this who are surprised when they try to shoot video and their cameras shut down after 12 minutes or their autofocus doesn't work.

I apologize to anyone who was offended, but I think it is important to let people know about these limitations before they buy these cameras - instead of after they've invested their hard earned money.

That's fine. Maybe I overreacted. I feel badly as well. I suppose if you do your own research (including posting on forums and asking for help), you should avoid most of it.

Oh, and MidEastGal, I'd recommend you try the cameras out in-store if at all possible.
 
I agree, rexbobcat - there are no statistical studies. That said, several people I respect have switched (e.g., dvxuser.com Canon moderator M. Gilden has pretty much switched for video, Will Crockett and several of the photographers at discovermirrorless have switched for stills and video or declared that their current DSLRs are the last ones they're ever going to buy
OK, now you're pushing it. :) GH2 is great value and terrific for video, but to say (or imply as you did here) that it's better than a DSLR in general is crazy. For one thing, you're going to be stuck with electronic viewfinder, slow focusing, poor low light performance, and large depth of field. I suppose you can get by with manual focus, but depth of field in particular tends to be a big deal to indie filmmakers whose primary goal in life is to make their video look like film, and the most brain-dead way to get there is to use shallow depth of field.

Sekhr, Thanks for your reply above about the stills. I will check images on Flickr. And thanks for your second message here on the depth of field. I certainly want my films to look like films ;) I have to read and watch more on that, I confess.
 
TehYoyo, Thank you! Wow! I appreciate the time it took you to reply and the resourceful answer and sharing your personal experience. I have a lot to think about in your reply and probably I might send again ;)... But for now why did you say "risk/reward" about the A57? The local store here recommended this one to me as I mentioned in my thread above and the price was not bad at all around 800 which gives me chance to buy gear. I frankly do prefer if the camera is well under 1000 so I buy gear but this is my ultimate limit. I am getting interested in the A57. Looking forward to more update from you once you start using it. I wonder what was the price you got it for if you don't mind me asking. Lots to think about, again.


Wow. This turned out way longer than I thought it would. Oh well &#8211; I&#8217;ve bolded what&#8217;s really important, although I advise you read all of it (painful as that is :P).

TehYoyo, Thank you for the enthusiastic reply. Oh my! I am getting total opposite replies regarding DSLR and DSLM... I am totally split between both at the moment. Seeing that video up on vimeo made me lean a lot towards the GH2, though, and with that sweet price. But I care too about the stills. I want to ask you, what do you say regarding teh tip above on the length of the video shooting on the Sony A57, for example? Is it irritably short taht I need to stop every 10 minutes or so? Are there other cameras you know of DSLR good video and still?
Sure - no problem.

Mirrorless cameras (I've never heard the term DSLM before - dunno if it's a thing) are the latest craze - which isn't a bad thing. In fact, they're quite good. They produce high quality stills and video and are compact and light - a lot of people don't like carrying around large dSLRs. I got my Sony dSLT (same as a dSLR for this particular discussion) because I didn't think I'd mind carrying it around - I can't tell you what I think as of now b/c I got it 4 hours ago in the mail (it's great so far, though :D).

One counterargument against mirrorless is that, with any lens on them, they're still unpocketable, as their size markets them to be. You'll still need to wear it on your neck or carry it in a bag of some sort (I'd recommend around the neck).

As to the video on Vimeo, you can capture that with any dSLR, from the Canon EOS Rebel T2i to the Canon 5d Mark III to the Nikon D800 (with uncompressed HDMI output) to the Sony NEX line to the Panasonic GH2.

In regards to time limits, if you're making your own short films, movies, webshows, etc, you're really not going to go over 12 minutes, or even come close (or else you're probably doing it wrong). The only time that issue has come up in a discussion I've been in is when this guy wanted to record a lacrosse game continuously. Even then, I told him just to wait for a break to make a new file. Easy. My Sony A57 can record up to 30 minutes, by the way.

Quick note about stop times and uncompressed HDMI output:
Research Magic Lantern. Now, as a Sony owner, I don't use Magic Lantern and so I haven't investigated it in-depth myself. However, from what I do know, it's a firmware (the software/program that runs on your camera) that adds extra features to a camera that users want but can't get with the standard firmware. I do believe that Magic Lantern for all Canon cameras offers uncompressed HDMI output (which you won&#8217;t use unless you&#8217;re really serious, although it&#8217;s worth looking up to see what the big deal is). Also, it handles auto-stop times the same way as the Panasonic GH2 - when it reaches the limit, it skips 3 seconds (i.e. creates a new file) and continues to record. Judge how detrimental that is to your work w/ your own judgement. It might matter to you, it might not.

As for recommendations, I was in the same boat as you (although with a smaller budget) just a few days ago. I wanted to get a dSLR that could produce good images (I wasn't going to nitpick, though - I went into it accepting that all dSLR images were good compared to what I had been seeing (i.e. point and shoot) and so that wasn't a huge issue, although features like 10 fps at full resolution pushed me towards Sony) and could record 1080p footage at 30 fps at least. I also had a few features that I was looking for (fully-articulating screen, good or cheap lens lineup, etc).

I ended going with the Sony A57 over the Canon T3i for a few reasons:
10 fps continuous shooting stills at full resolution
. Seriously. Will I use it a lot? No. Probably not. But it's so nice to have and listen to. Awesome. Go to Best Buy and compare continuous on the A57 and the T3i and you'll see.

60 fps at 1080p for slow motion (video). No other consumer dSLR has that feature.

There were a few other motivations, like being different (I like standing out, and since almost every single novice has a Rebel of some sort, I felt cool buying a Sony), wanting to use old Minolta lenses on my camera, etc.


My recommendation for you:
At this point, it really doesn't matter what you get. If you really, really want the small(er) size of a mirrorless camera, I would say get the Panasonic or the Sony NEX of your choice (choose based on what features you want/price/etc). But, I would advise you to get either the Canon Rebel T3i (which I consider the "safer" choice b/c it's so established, more support, etc.) or the Sony A57 (more risk/reward I think). A few reasons:
1) Lenses. Lenses are infinitely more important than the body. See for more.
2) Features/Expandibility. Just b/c of the larger form factor, DSLRs can do more or at least do the off-the-beaten-path things better
3) Larger sensor(like what Sekhar said)

All of that said (and if you&#8217;re this far, congrats!), keep in mind that, in the grand scheme of things, the camera and the lens doesn&#8217;t matter as much as the person who is using it. Put a newbie in front of a Canon EOS 1DX with a 24-70L, a 17L TS-E, a 50mm 1.4L, a 70-200L (a few of the nicest lenses that Canon makes), etc. etc. etc. and give a professional an iPhone 5 and I guarantee that the professional will take infinitely better pictures.
If you watched the 2008 Olympics, I&#8217;m sure you noticed the hype about the Speedo LZR Racer suit &#8211; it was supposed to go extra fast. I remember one person said something to the general extent of &#8220;I tested it. I threw it in the water and it didn&#8217;t move, so I guess I still have to swim.&#8221; The same is true of cameras. The camera is only the tool &#8211; you still gotta make pictures.
 
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Brunerww, Thank you for such an informative reply especially with the comparison. I am amazed taht the time I am going to buy a DSLR is the time when there is such a heated debate about them and DSLM (Mirrorless). I kind like to go against the main stream, but in this one I am still a bit afaraid to head to mirrorless. Seems to me I have to pass through the DSLR then switch after that. (seems silly) but I feel I want to catch up with the historical development and own a DSLR. Maybe in the future I will buy a second one as a DSLM and keep both. I will need a backup in all cases and one will produce better images; the other better video support (I guess). I am not sure yet but this is what came to my mind after reading today's answers I received from you guys and the other readings on websites and comparing features.

I still will need any useful tips if anybody remembers a new idea to share! :) Still thinking. ...:er:

Hi MidEastGal - sadly, not a lot of people have experience shooting video with both DSLRs and DSLMs, so you will hear a lot of opinions that are somewhat less than well-informed. I have shot video and stills with both types of camera, and once people go high-end mirrorless, it is very rare for them to go back.

Here is a little video-centric matrix that may be helpful:

Canon DSLR: Clip limit - 12 to 30 minutes; Video autofocus - no (except T4i); Video viewfinder - no; Silent autofocus lenses - no

Sony DSLT ("T" is for Translucent Mirror): Clip limit - 30 min; Video autofocus - yes; Video viewfinder - yes; Silent autofocus lenses - no

Panasonic DSLM: Clip limit - hours; Video autofocus - yes; Video viewfinder - yes; Silent autofocus lenses - yes

DSLMs are not perfect cameras. Although my GH2 takes fabulous stills, my old T2i was a better still camera, in my view. But, as cameras designed from the ground up for video, they are a much better blend of still and video capability than legacy DSLRs. And they are lighter in weight, smaller in size, and often less expensive.

Here is what Will Crockett at discovermirrorless.com says of the new GH3:



Again, hope that is helpful!

Bill

P.S. - it's not me calling them DSLMs, it's Panasonic ;)

P.P.S. - I didn't invent DSLT either
 
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Rexbobcat, Thank you for your input and sharing experience. I liked your website, by the way. About the sensor and general performance especially in low light, could you please tell more about these points? I like low light.

brunerww said:
Hi MidEastGal - sadly, not a lot of people have experience shooting video with both DSLRs and DSLMs, so you will hear a lot of opinions that are somewhat less than well-informed. I have shot video and stills with both types of camera, and once people go high-end mirrorless, it is very rare for them to go back.

Here is a little video-centric matrix that may be helpful:

Canon DSLR: Clip limit - 12 to 30 minutes; Video autofocus - no (except T4i); Video viewfinder - no; Silent autofocus lenses - no

Sony DSLT ("T" is for Translucent Mirror): Clip limit - 30 min; Video autofocus - yes; Video viewfinder - yes; Silent autofocus lenses - no

Panasonic DSLM: Clip limit - hours; Video autofocus - yes; Video viewfinder - yes; Silent autofocus lenses - yes

DSLMs are not perfect cameras. Although my GH2 takes fabulous stills, my old T2i was a better still camera, in my view. But, as cameras designed from the ground up for video, they are a much better blend of still and video capability than legacy DSLRs. And they are lighter in weight, smaller in size, and often less expensive.

Here is what Will Crockett at discovermirrorless.com says of the new GH3:

YouTube Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyrGdHClmFI

Again, hope that is helpful!

Bill

P.S. - it's not me calling them DSLMs, it's Panasonic ;)

I love how your claims for people rarely going back are substantiated with data :)

Jk

The only issue I have with mirrorless for video is the relatively small range of high quality native lenses (on the level of Canon/Nikon) and how they can struggle at low light because of sensor sizes and general camera performance.

For general video shooting though the GH3 is a good choice.
 
MidEastGal said:
Rexbobcat, Thank you for your input and sharing experience. I liked your website, by the way. About the sensor and general performance especially in low light, could you please tell more about these points? I like low light.

Well thank you. :)

Generally mirrorless sensors as of right now are smaller than DSLR sensors.

There are some exceptions like the Sony NEX system, which has an APS-C size sensor, but cameras like the GH3 have a Micro 4/3rds size sensor.

Here is a chart of sensor sizes:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sensor_sizes_overlaid_inside.svg

The larger the sensor, the better the lowlight performance because the sensor can gather more light as well as dissipate heat better.

Therefore, if you look at lowlight, high ISO footage comparison between, say, a GH3 and a 5D Mark II - even though the GH3 is newer, it will have worse noise at high ISO than the 5D because the 5D's sensor is approximately 3 times larger.

The more versatility you want, the more money you have to spend basically.
 

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