Everyone sings praises of your work, until money enters into the equation

[epp_b]

Do you think wedding photographers "hang out" at weddings at which they're not working?

You say that as if a wedding is a spectator sport

 

[Flash Harry]

It is really, in public anyway, but he's just coming out with the usual argumentative stuff so ignore him, many pro's go to events/performance/occasions and don't give freebies, Personally I'd sell any shot someone was interested in but I'd not be giving away anything to a race competitor just because they were in the "club", there was permission granted its up to you what you do with the product. H

 

[DanEitreim]

First, I think you should at least double your prices. It's hardly worth the trouble to print them at that rate. Then if anyone complains, explain to them that you are giving them the print for free...they are paying for your time at the track and years of experience, equipment and so on.

BTW - I've been a professional photographer for 19 years and I've gone to a lot of weddings where I didn't shoot anything.

 

[epp_b]

BTW - I've been a professional photographer for 19 years and I've gone to a lot of weddings where I didn't shoot anything.

Presumably, you were invited to those weddings. You don't need to be invited to go and watch drag racing

EDIT: Woah... unspam your sig, man :thumbdown:

 

[Christie Photo]

EDIT: Woah... unspam your sig, man :thumbdown:

Agreed!

-Pete

 

[Heck]

Your work is really good and I would of killed to have a shot of my car at the track that looks like fine art and not just a snap shot. Explain on your site the value of having such a fine print and the years of enjoyment long after the cars are gone. I sold just the files for my car club. It is funny how the people with the "cheap" cars bought and the exotics never sold.

 

[David Dvir]

I agree with Petraio Prime on this one. Just because you've got nice shots doesn't mean you're the event photographer. Theres a fine line between hanging out taking photos and hanging out/selling photos. If there's a father in the audience taking shots of his son and another father asks to have one of them, he's probably going to say yes. You're somewhere between the father and a hired professional, however you're neither at the moment. At the very least I would sell at a discounted rate.

Making your presence there clear should be your top priority I think.

 

[PenguinPhotoWrx]

I see the OP's dilema. On one hand, you should be paid to cover your expenses. On the other hand, what is going to happen next year when you say, "can I get on the track?"

"Nope, go to hell."

Maybe that's extreme, but that is the corner a lot of advanced-amateur or semi-pro photographers get themselves into. It's a no-man's land, for sure. The rank amateur would be jumping up and down for the opportunity to get so close- then email the pictures to everyone that night (un-edited, by the way) with explanations of "I know this one's out of focus, but it would have been great." That becomes the accepted norm for alot of people who do you a favor by giving you access to something you normally couldn't get access to.

On the other hand, it costs you money to produce a print, profit aside. You certainly shouldn't be expected to put out money because someone else wants a print.

And when it comes to making a large poster of a picture, it would always be better for you to make the print and have them reimburse you, than have them do it themselves- you always want to control the quality of the prints since it's your name associated with the final result.

 

[epp_b]

I see the OP's dilema. On one hand, you should be paid to cover your expenses. On the other hand, what is going to happen next year when you say, "can I get on the track?"

"Nope, go to hell."

That's pretty much the reality. The status quo is with them, not me.

It's not a matter of hiring a professional and paying for time versus finding an amateur and getting the time for nothing; it's a matter of finding an amateur or having nothing at all.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

I see the OP's dilema. On one hand, you should be paid to cover your expenses. On the other hand, what is going to happen next year when you say, "can I get on the track?"

"Nope, go to hell."

That's pretty much the reality. The status quo is with them, not me.

It's not a matter of hiring a professional and paying for time versus finding an amateur and getting the time for nothing; it's a matter of finding an amateur or having nothing at all.

Sorry, wrong way to look at this. I don't care if you are a pro or an amateur. I only care whether you can deliver good shots.

As a pro, I might go to such an event and shoot on spec (meaning I make money from what I sell) but my print prices would be way higher than yours. And if I didn't sell enough the first time around I would be outta there.

What you are dealing with is the Walmart mentality. Learn to deal with it.

It doesn't really matter that you don't have a contract, it doesn't matter that you are not a pro (nothing but semantics really,) all that really matters is the quality of the images. If they're good, your rates are more than fair. If they're not, the rates are probably still fair if no one else has the shots. If they're great you need to raise your rates.

People are stupid. If it's too cheap it can't be good. It it's expensive it must be good. Lol. Forget about being fair.

I'm not going to get into what those people spend on their cars vs. the price of one of your prints. But if they argue about your print price, just walk away. No need to argue about it. They'll come to you when they get tired of buying sh*t photos. Excuse my french.

And if they don't get it maybe you want to think about getting into a different market.

 

[PenguinPhotoWrx]

I see the OP's dilema. On one hand, you should be paid to cover your expenses. On the other hand, what is going to happen next year when you say, "can I get on the track?"

"Nope, go to hell."

That's pretty much the reality. The status quo is with them, not me.

It's not a matter of hiring a professional and paying for time versus finding an amateur and getting the time for nothing; it's a matter of finding an amateur or having nothing at all.

Sorry, wrong way to look at this. I don't care if you are a pro or an amateur. I only care whether you can deliver good shots.

As a pro, I might go to such an event and shoot on spec (meaning I make money from what I sell) but my print prices would be way higher than yours. And if I didn't sell enough the first time around I would be outta there.

What you are dealing with is the Walmart mentality. Learn to deal with it.

It doesn't really matter that you don't have a contract, it doesn't matter that you are not a pro (nothing but semantics really,) all that really matters is the quality of the images. If they're good, your rates are more than fair. If they're not, the rates are probably still fair if no one else has the shots. If they're great you need to raise your rates.

People are stupid. If it's too cheap it can't be good. It it's expensive it must be good. Lol. Forget about being fair.

I'm not going to get into what those people spend on their cars vs. the price of one of your prints. But if they argue about your print price, just walk away. No need to argue about it. They'll come to you when they get tired of buying sh*t photos. Excuse my french.

And if they don't get it maybe you want to think about getting into a different market.

You're not wrong. I think that's the gist of the discussion. Had the OP approached these guys with a contract, or with saying he wanted to take pictures at the track that he could sell, then they would have expected to pay for prints when asking for them. He didn't do that.

Hey- if I'm working on my car, and I ask my best buddy to come over and help with some of the two-man jobs, I don't expect him to charge me for his time. He's hanging out with a friend having fun with a hobby. If he has expenses, yes, I'll reimburse him for the cost, that's it. Then I'll buy him lunch/dinner and some beers and we call it even. Now if I invite that same friend over and he happens to be a pro mechanic- I would expect to pay him for his time, at a profit to him. Anything else would be taking advantage of a pro.

Now here's the kicker- if my friend says, "Hey, can I come over and work on your car? I need the practice working on that model." Pro or not, I don't expect to be paying him. I think this is the spot the OP is in. He asked for access, he asked for a favor- now he wants to charge the folks who did him the favor?

Like I said, I'm not saying you should give them free prints- but you should at least understand why they may be a little put off if you charge them.

What I would do is say, yes, I'd love to sell you guys some prints. Here's my price list, I'll give you x% discount and throw in a couple of smaller prints as a thank you for giving me access to something I normally wouldn't have had access to.

Let's remember, even if you gave them the original files, they would still have to pay a lab to make the prints- it still wouldn't be free. Better for you to do it and keep control of quality. They should understand that also.

 

[epp_b]

It doesn't really matter that you don't have a contract, it doesn't matter that you are not a pro (nothing but semantics really,) all that really matters is the quality of the images.

No argument there.

I've actually been told by people -- this was totally unrelated to this event -- that I shouldn't be charging money if I'm not a full-time professional. Sigh...

 

[c.cloudwalker]

It doesn't really matter that you don't have a contract, it doesn't matter that you are not a pro (nothing but semantics really,) all that really matters is the quality of the images.

No argument there.

I've actually been told by people -- this was totally unrelated to this event -- that I shouldn't be charging money if I'm not a full-time professional. Sigh...

Well then, tell them idiots you are a full time pro. And charge them 10 times as much.

 

[epp_b]

Hey- if I'm working on my car,...

Great, just what any discussion needs in order to be complete: a car analogy

 

[LokiZ]

Hey- if I'm working on my car, and I ask my best buddy to come over and help with some of the two-man jobs, I don't expect him to charge me for his time. He's hanging out with a friend having fun with a hobby. If he has expenses, yes, I'll reimburse him for the cost, that's it. Then I'll buy him lunch/dinner and some beers and we call it even. Now if I invite that same friend over and he happens to be a pro mechanic- I would expect to pay him for his time, at a profit to him. Anything else would be taking advantage of a pro.

That is not a given. Case in point... My buddy, a professional mechanic, works on my car as needed. I pay him parts (at cost). I don't even work on my car with him. If I send him side jobs yes they pay, but labor to me is free and parts don't come into the equation as I would pay for them regardless of who worked on my car. I could work on my car with him and do if I want to learn but not usually. This is not taking advantage of him, we are friends and good friends do things for each other regardless of their status. My offering to him is repairing and de-teenaging his computers as needed. Sometimes he pays me sometimes I refuse. But those times are as needed just as my car repairs are as needed. In other words it not a straight trade. Sometimes I am fixing his computers more and sometimes he's working on my cars more often.

That is apples to oranges as far as the op goes. A) Those asking for prints are not friends. B) Allowing to stand on inner track is not equal trade for handing over works of art. and C) There is the possibility of numerous individuals all seeking free to grossly deflated prices for said works of arts. Your example was one on one.

So no, the car analogy does not fly and pretty much any analogy using friends and family. That is a whole other thread.

To op in that situation you need to stand up for your quality work period. If charging for your work is not fine with them then you can deal with that next time via greater detail and understanding as to what it is that THEY actually want and think they are entitled to.

My two cents.