Fire in the Belly

[Derrel]

SNIP> you roll in to someplace like TPF to show off your photos>SNIP>>>these photos are pretty terrible. You're overflowing with awful, creative, amazing, ideas. Awful. Creative. Amazing. All at once.>SNIP>If you're not commercial, you're the only person who matters.>They're your photos.>Do the work that pleases you.

This is what I got out of the original post: "Don't listen to diddly-squat. Nobody else knows jack-chit. Keep shooting those "awful" pictures."

I think the reply posted above, in post #15, makes sense.

 

[photoguy99]

My motivation is that I've seen several people roll in to TPF full of fire and ideas, and a year later they're turning in the most ordinary stuff, and getting compliments for meeting expectations, and that makes me sad. They seem happy, to be sure, so maybe it's all for naught.

If I've noticed several, that means there's probably more. There's probably also people who packed it all in, rather than complying with local standards, and still others that just bailed and either went elsewhere or are shooting in a vacuum now. That's speculation, but it seems pretty likely.

That makes me even sadder, because feedback can be useful, it can expand your horizons and make you happier with your own work.

 

[photoguy99]

SNIP> you roll in to someplace like TPF to show off your photos>SNIP>>>these photos are pretty terrible. You're overflowing with awful, creative, amazing, ideas. Awful. Creative. Amazing. All at once.>SNIP>If you're not commercial, you're the only person who matters.>They're your photos.>Do the work that pleases you.

This is what I got out of the original post: "Don't listen to diddly-squat. Nobody else knows jack-chit. Keep shooting those "awful" pictures."

I think the reply posted above, in post #15, makes sense.

That's really a shame, Derrel. That's not what I said at all. Have you considered reading more of the words?

 

[Derrel]

I read your OP multiple times. I'm a former high school and university-level newspaper editor, and I would say that your OP was poorly written, confusing, and muddled. Have you considered editing it to make it more readable?

Please note what Gary lead off with in Post #5, when he began, "That was kind of a confusing post. " It's not "just me," it's what you wrote, word choices, and exposition method.

 

[sashbar]

This is nothing new. I have seen creative geniuses with "amazing" ideas lost in exposure triangle before.

 

[JoeW]

My motivation is that I've seen several people roll in to TPF full of fire and ideas, and a year later they're turning in the most ordinary stuff, and getting compliments for meeting expectations, and that makes me sad. They seem happy, to be sure, so maybe it's all for naught.

If I've noticed several, that means there's probably more. There's probably also people who packed it all in, rather than complying with local standards, and still others that just bailed and either went elsewhere or are shooting in a vacuum now. That's speculation, but it seems pretty likely.

That makes me even sadder, because feedback can be useful, it can expand your horizons and make you happier with your own work.

First, I think you and I have very different definitions of what "fire in the belly" means. It's also not clear if you're criticizing the lack of vision/ideas or the standards applied to judge any photo. It sounds initially like you're saying that people show up with concepts that are wild and amazing but TFP treats them with no respect. However the examples you seem to allude to deal more with C&C about technique on a specific photo (things like "I'd crop out that right side" or "the horizon isn't level") or things like that--which isn't relevant to the issue of amazing concepts, it's dealing with composition and technical performance. So at least to me, it comes off in the OP like you're saying "don't submit to C&C on TFP, ignore the community standards you'll get in feedback b/c there's no creativity."

Second, you don't say whether or not the people rolling in to TPF are new or veterans, if their initial work is great in your opinion or what. But it's interesting that you condemn the idea of C&C and then proceed to level a critique of the work of those people saying that it makes you sad. Do you see the internal contradiction here?

As for "local standards"....I didn't get that memo. Obviously, this site isn't Model Mayhem or Model Society or Lightstalkers or Sportshooter...it's got a different focus (not better or worse, just different...just as each of those communities I've just cited has their own focus). Most of the time, I see a photo posted for C&C and there is often a pretty diverse critique.

 

[runnah]

 

[Derrel]

First, I think you and I have very different definitions of what "fire in the belly" means. It's also not clear if you're criticizing the lack of vision/ideas or the standards applied to judge any photo. It sounds initially like you're saying that people show up with concepts that are wild and amazing but TFP treats them with no respect. However the examples you seem to allude to deal more with C&C about technique on a specific photo (things like "I'd crop out that right side" or "the horizon isn't level") or things like that--which isn't relevant to the issue of amazing concepts, it's dealing with composition and technical performance. So at least to me, it comes off in the OP like you're saying "don't submit to C&C on TFP, ignore the community standards you'll get in feedback b/c there's no creativity."

Second, you don't say whether or not the people rolling in to TPF are new or veterans, if their initial work is great in your opinion or what. But it's interesting that you condemn the idea of C&C and then proceed to level a critique of the work of those people saying that it makes you sad. Do you see the internal contradiction here?

As for "local standards"....I didn't get that memo. Obviously, this site isn't Model Mayhem or Model Society or Lightstalkers or Sportshooter...it's got a different focus (not better or worse, just different...just as each of those communities I've just cited has their own focus). Most of the time, I see a photo posted for C&C and there is often a pretty diverse critique.

Again, no disrespect intended, but JoeW's post that I have quoted addresses some of the multiple areas of confusion created by the wording and writing methods used in the Original Post. What I extracted from the Original Post was a series of Strawmen, destined to fight against some hypothetical army of pitchfork-carrying, torch-outfitted, raving TPF C&C stormtroopers... hence my earlier posts.

I find it hard to have a discussion when the post that initiates it is unclear and rambling, and when multiple participants confess that they are having difficulty following the OP as the basis for forming a discussion.

 

[photoguy99]

"Fire in the belly" is a pretty well defined phrase. It just means passion and drive.

If this was a newspaper, I'd probably edit more carefully. It's not. While my OP might be a bit muddled up, getting 'ignore everyone and keep shooting your awful photos' out of it is just wilfully wrong:

ETA: having read it a couple times, I have to say, my OP is perfectly clear. Just read the words instead of trying to fit some dumb subtext to it, and you'll be fine.

"Use the critique to learn what you like."
"Pay attention to what people say ..."

You're willfilly wrong, Derrel, and you know it, Derrel. You're just being Derrel, and reacting to what you incorrectly perceive as an attack. As usual. Derrel.

I'd clarify more except that it's pointless. Just more words to be misinterpreted and nitpicked and argued with. It's all there in the original post, and it's been clarified in at least one followup. Go re-read 'em if you're interested.

ETA: If you want to know what I mean, try starting from the position that I mean something sensible, and try to work out what that could be, rather than starting from the position 'I think he is attacking TPF, therefore I had best look for nitpicky contradictions to complain about, in order to cut him down to size.' It's the internet, sometimes you have to unmuddle things a little. If you're actually interested in what's being said. If you're interested in counting coup instead, of course, well, carry on.

I will add one more thing:

When you do get critique, make an effort to understand what the person is getting at. You might have to struggle a bit, but try to get the sense of what they're driving at. Don't focus on tone, or get lost in details, or typos, or whatever. Assume they're trying to say something sensible, and useful, and try to find that and use it.

One thing's pretty sure, almost nobody is going to struggle to make sense out of what you're trying to do. You can't rely on meeting people half-way. If you want the value, you have to make the entire journey yourself.

 

[sashbar]

Graviston works well in most cases

 

[Fred Berg]

Graviston works well in most cases

That stuff tastes like Germoline smells!

 

[Fred Berg]

My motivation is that I've seen several people roll in to TPF full of fire and ideas, and a year later they're turning in the most ordinary stuff, and getting compliments for meeting expectations, and that makes me sad. They seem happy, to be sure, so maybe it's all for naught.

If I've noticed several, that means there's probably more. There's probably also people who packed it all in, rather than complying with local standards, and still others that just bailed and either went elsewhere or are shooting in a vacuum now. That's speculation, but it seems pretty likely.

That makes me even sadder, because feedback can be useful, it can expand your horizons and make you happier with your own work.

I like to think that I'm true to myself, I hope I am anyway. However, this doesn't mean that I don't keep an open ear (and mind) for the feedback I get on my photos. I'll change things in post or go back and shoot again with the new ideas in mind where I feel the critique and suggestions could add something to a photo or help me to produce something new and worthwhile.

I personally don't think this means I am compromising myself.

 

[photoguy99]

Yep.

Critique is a mirror, when it's working at its best. If you use it to refine and expand yourself, it's awesome and all to the good.

It's hard, though. It's so tempting to just experiment with something you don't much like, just to see if they like that. And then when they do...

We crave positive feedback. It's a slippery slope. Especially when the negative feedback gets harsh and snotty, and the positive is so sycophantic. We have excellent examples of both here on TPF in just they last 48 hours.

 

[rexbobcat]

I don't ever really ask for critique because IDGAF.

Nah, I welcome all comments. Just assume that my threads are an open invitation to give me whatever opinions you have about the photos.

 

[sleist]

It's important to put peoples opinions and critique in the proper perspective.

On the one hand, it's good to get other peoples perspective. We are sometimes blind to the flaws in our own work.

That being said, if we care too much about pleasing everyone else, then we will never find our own style of creative self-expression.

It's important to find your own path, but you should occasionally ask for directions. Just be certain the people you ask aren't more lost than you are. Or worse, going someplace completely different.