Framing vs. Composition (non-technical stuff)?

[john.margetts]

I don't consciously use the rule of thirds, but it is surprising how many of my better pictures happen to closely agree with it. It is also surprising how many of my pictures have elements that lie on the Golden Spiral - again, never intentional.

I do, however, use A format paper for my prints as its sides are close to the Golden Ratio of 1:1.6

 

[john.margetts]

<snip>

A simpleton, trying to look at landscape paintings, and to numerically decode how to compose! Hilarious ****! From..the 1790's!

Da Vinci did much the same around 1500 but I am not sure he was a simpleton.

 

[Derrel]

@Derrel So, you do not agree with rule of 1/3rd or the grid approach being helpful? Seems to be a simple guide to get started with composition.

NO, I do not because it is not a good guide. This is a "rule" not found in any art books of the last 200 years. It leads many noobs astray...they think they can slap anything on a precise point, and make a good image. Classic case in point: Horizontal frame, woman standing, looking to the right, and placed on the right 1/3 line. Idiotic. Makes an AWFUL composition. 2/3 of the frame to the left, useless...her amputated at the knee joint...and looking out of the frame to the short side...BAD composition.

AGAIN..look up, on-line, the following term: the elements and principles of design.

There is vastly,vastly more to composing than compose by numbers, which is what this so-called rule of thirds is...compose by numbers. There are a LOT of other factors in creating a composition than just plunking stuff at certain, specific points within the confines of a frame. LIke in the above example: I see the above image repeatedly, by people who have NO idea of what it is they have done.

It is a "simple guide", just as paint by numbers painting are a simple way to get started with painting. And yes, the so-called rule of thirds, it is simple, just as simplistic as the advice, "Keep the car between the ditches" is as a guide to getting started in driving an automobile. NEITHER is really solid advice.

University art classes in drawing and painting and design showed me that the "rule of thirds grid-line system" is NOT, I repeat, IS NOT a part of the visual arts. We've had this discussion here on TPF for multiple years. Dissing the so-called rule of thirds grid system annoys the hell out of people who've never studied the visual arts, but who compose sort of by the seat of their pants. But drawing lines, on top of pictures, after the fact, utterly ignores what "pictures" are made up of!!!! Lines, shapes, masses, textures, hues, tonal values, repeating "things", hgarmonious arrangements of 'things", dissonant "things", and so on. Again: the elements and principles of design.

 

[Derrel]

<snip>

A simpleton, trying to look at landscape paintings, and to numerically decode how to compose! Hilarious ****! From..the 1790's!

Da Vinci did much the same around 1500 but I am not sure he was a simpleton.

here is a piece on composing by lines and shapes drawn on top of a frame: The Diamond Ratio: The Ultimate Rule of Photo Composition

Read it. And then LOOK at all the morons who think this is real, and not a satire!

Yes, the uneducated pontificating about "lines",drawn on top of pictures. Study the visual arts at a university level, and this charade is revealed for what it is. Love the random da Vincii reference in this as some sort of bona fide! Again, read the article Andrew wrote, and watch how many suckers take the bait! many beleive a composition can be mathematically decoded.

Composition is NOT solely about placing things on exact "points" on lines--there is much,much more to a composition than WHERE, exactly, things are placed. There are many other things that make up a good composition than where, exactly, random things happen to land. Read until the end, where I talk about drawing lines of a finished thing on top of a photo, and claiming one therefore knows how to create said object.

The hilarious thing is people who draw lines on top of pictures, and ignore allllllll of the underlying things within that image. Shapes, colors, tones, for example. NONE of those things has squat to do with "lines drawn on top of the image". Same with repeating patterns, or one, single dissonant object within a sea of repeating shapes, or fifty other types of compositions. The "lines" theories simply ignore 95% of the composition. The grid theory cannot explain 95% of the actual stuff in a picture! The simplistic grid theory is a hack to teach the novice how to make pictures that are, basically, not dreadful.

Looking for shortcuts, while ignoring what pictures actually are made up of, this is where the lines theorists were headed, but they failed. Again...there **is** known information about the visual arts, but the lines-on-top-crowd does not understand the field's basics. Just as we lay people cannot do surgery. Or even repair a jet engine. Pop Culture Ideas are not the "science" underlying any fields of study.

The actual ELEMENTS of the picture. And the PRINCIPLES of design used to organize the composition. Neither the elements, nor the principles of design, follow slavish "lines" theories. Keep in mind: at one time, and for centuries, smart folks thought they could find a way to turn lead into gold. And "bad blood" and bloodletting were 'scientific principles' that ultimately were shown to be wrong. NONE of the "lines" or "grid" theories address the fundamentals of designing anything. They are like looking at a brick structure, drawing the outlines of the walls and roof, and proclaiming, "THIS is how a mason builds a building! He looks at these few lines! This **is** the secret to masonry!!!

Allow me to address this "lines-on-top-as-secret" fallacy with a final analogy: And so, we're right back to the elements and principles of building A Brick Building. Bricks, mortar, plumb bobs, bubble levels, shovels, trowels, hods, measuring tapes, labor,foundation principles, interlocking of bricks, cutting of bricks, curing of mortar, mixing of mortar,properly aligning bricks,etc. Just some of the elements, and the principles of building a brick building.

YES, we can trace the lines on a finished photograph of the brick building, and claim that we know how to make a building out of bricks. Because...well, the LINES!

 

[DriedStrawbery]

@Derrel So, you do not agree with rule of 1/3rd or the grid approach being helpful? Seems to be a simple guide to get started with composition.

NO, I do not because it is not a good guide. This is a "rule" not found in any art books of the last 200 years. It leads many noobs astray...they think they can slap anything on a precise point, and make a good image. Classic case in point: Horizontal frame, woman standing, looking to the right, and placed on the right 1/3 line. Idiotic. Makes an AWFUL composition. 2/3 of the frame to the left, useless...her amputated at the knee joint...and looking out of the frame to the short side...BAD composition.

AGAIN..look up, on-line, the following term: the elements and principles of design.
...
.

Thanks for repeating your thoughts on the topic. I noticed many threads that span many years on composition when I was searching for existing threads on this topic.

I'm re-reading about composition now. Read/heard lectures on it maybe a year back. Re-doing it now after learning about the elements of design (what you pointed out) in a basic art class. I found those aspects eye opening! The class was good, it introduced these elements and case studied a few paintings.

I collected a few books/vids in TPF threads and will spend time with them.

While I agree with you about 1/3rd rule not being a guide ages back, it doesn't mean it should be included in today's literature on composition. Its similar to getting people started with a DSLR in Auto mode, just to get them onto an equipment with greater potential. Folks interested in photography will soon outgrow that mode. Same with rule of 3rds/grid.

Currently, my post processing workflow consists of cropping images and some will be fit to the rule of thirds.
I try to compose in the camera as much as possible, but not there yet. I'm still very new to composition, especially after seeing the amount of literature out there yet to be read... !

 

[Evan55T]

So i've been reading some books about composition and from what i've learned that it has nothing to do with framing a shot (well not really but composing a shot just means using different factors/aspects that make it more appealing but i think it's sort of intuition idk)... as in the angle or getting like the *physical technique* of say holding the camera a few inches off the ground to get a shot solely of wheels on a car or to get a different perspective/POV of the scene which would fill the frame etc.

From what i've been reading it talks about a lot of rules, guidelines, and principles like people have mentioned here as well as color, lines, shapes, etc. Some of the stuff appeals to me and i find useful for the stuff i'm doing such as colors and depth, but i feel like it's way too general but i guess it depends on your subject and other factors obv.

 

[DriedStrawbery]

I have been seeing this course. It's been good so far, am half way through it.

Talks about many subtle aspects of the approach and habit of working a shot and "seeing".

Useful tips we can apply when shooting with any camera.

Foundations of Photography: Composition

Subscription required. Check if your employer has an org wide registration.




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[unpopular]

I think of framing as the whole and composition as the parts. Composition makes up the frame.

 

[unpopular]

Oh.

And screw the rule of thirds.

 

[Derrel]

Take a look at this TPF member's photo post. While waiting at the Dr. office

Look at the image in B&W first. He posted it a day or two later, in color. But the B&W version is very useful when we talk about 1) framing and 2) composition.

Look at the image, and lay a "rule of thirds" grid over the top of it...see how useless that is. See how the rule of thirds grid really is not a panacea. Then, if you've seen the elements and principles of design detailed on one of a hundred art or painting websites, note how MANY elements and principles of design this image uses.

 

[Evan55T]

*BUMP*

Didn't want to create another thread asking about something related to this topic ha.

How do i make all my shots straight/centered like do i just try to align my camera/viewfinder with lines or does it just take practice. Sorry if this question is unclear what i'm talking about is how most of my shots will tilt off to a slight angle instead of being completely flat, even, or leveled.

Such as when i'm taking some architectural pictures in a church or something is where this issue stands out the most, as the shot won't be completely level/symmetrical because of the way i'm holding it?

---

I think i can fix this with a tripod or by going into post-process and cropping it to make it so that everything is aligned straight.
^
But is there another way (besides PP or tripod) like a technique i can use to make sure i get leveled/flat shots all the time or does it just take physical practice to get clean leveled/centered/straight shots where all the lines are symmetrical.

I'll post some pics here in a bit of what i'm talking about.

 

[john.margetts]

Both my cameras have built-in levels which are a godsend. Without a level, line the camera up with a dominant vertical or horizontal.

 

[Evan55T]

Both my cameras have built-in levels which are a godsend. Without a level, line the camera up with a dominant vertical or horizontal.

How do ik if my dslr has a built in level (it's a d700).

Yeah that's what i've been trying to do been shooting some architectural stuff to try and get the hang of it/practice but it keeps looking lopsided every time.

Also i'm still a beginner so sometimes i take a shot i start *heavy breathing* sometimes... the *heavy breathing* obv doesn't help.

 

[smoke665]

Also i'm a beginner so every time i take a shot i start *heavy breathing* sometimes...

I try to get as close as possible in camera but I don't stress out about it because it's not that difficult to correct post.

 

[john.margetts]

Also i'm a beginner so every time i take a shot i start *heavy breathing* sometimes...

I try to get as close as possible in camera but I don't stress out about it because it's not that difficult to correct post.

The trouble with levelling in post is that you lose the edges of the picture. If you are photographing in a confined space (i.e. a church) that can be very important.