Help with banquet shoot

[pictureme]

He's really right.

Your kidding me right ? you come here and throw your 2 on this thread knowing its been out the door ? Lets not start the fire up again.What has been said is done ,no heart feelings anywhere...everyone said what they said and we leave as that .Thank you

 

[SilverGlow]

Yes you are right about it. But even that, is it hard to explain gently?

I noticed in a lot of threads that mean attitude. That is what bothers me. I even made a thread where i had some problems at a wedding where i was a BACKUP photographer, and still i was treated with hostility


Lastly i want to say that i am not defending people who obviously don't know very much about photography. I am defending people who try to learn and the sole purpose of this forum, from which i have learned a lot.

So then you're the type of friend that gives another freind the advise that they want to hear? That is not a true friend and that way of thinking is devoid of truth.

True friends are supposed to protect, and not to encourage a mistake.

A much better friend says what needs to be said, and NEVER what the other wants to hear. Truth versus lies type stuff.

Often times the best advise is IN FACT that type that one does not want to hear. The mature person understand this. The adult adolecenct types don't. In other words, if the OP is mature and smart, he will thank us "bad rude posters" for our frank advise. If he is immature, he will accuse us of being negative, rude, and well, write what you wrote ;-)

Now the OP is asking for help. Well, since he is months or years away from doing a real wedding, any help any of us seasoned chaps would give him would be lost because he does not have the time to learn our advise before his sister's wedding.

What you don't seem to understand is that I and others know MANY married couples, especially brides, two, five, ten or more years after their wedding, that look at their horribly captured pictures and cry in shame, and regret. This type of thing can be a source of PROFOUND pain through the life of that marriage. THAT is what you don't seem to understand.

That special day is not about the newbie photographer. It is about the bride and groom and ONLY them.

If you can be more sensitive to the bride and groom, then you too will understand why several of us advise the OP to not do this wedding.

 

[SilverGlow]

And as for your statement that anyone shooting in auto mode is going to ruin a picture 9 out of 10 times is just ignorance or elitist attitude on your part. You are saying that 90% of the time the cameras computers and settings developed over several decades by a dozen manufacturers are wrong! Your flat out stating Nikon and Canon have no clue what they are doing, their cameras can produce a good picture less than 10% of the time!

In your paragpraph above, therein lies the problem with your thinking.

In fact, both Canon and Nikon and all the major brands do in fact find fault with their auto settings. And in fact, BOTH Canon and Nikon advise their pro users NOT to use many of their auto settings as a policy.

And in fact, Canon and Nikon are so leary about the auto settings that they provide on their cameras and flashes, that they have added the following features to compensate for the limitations of their auto settings:

1. Modes M, Av, Tv.
2. E-TTL overrides.
3. The ability to split the exposure between body and flash with infinite variations.
4. WB overrides.

The list goes on and on and on....

And you'll never find even one successful pro event/wedding photographer that relies on full auto as a best practice.

Do you really believe that the engineers at Canon and Nikon can create auto camera systems to support all or nearly all shooting situations? Even those two companies don't think so, but it seems you do...why is that?

 

[roadkill]

Dont do the wedding.

 

[benhasajeep48 47]

In your paragpraph above, therein lies the problem with your thinking.

In fact, both Canon and Nikon and all the major brands do in fact find fault with their auto settings. And in fact, BOTH Canon and Nikon advise their pro users NOT to use many of their auto settings as a policy.

And in fact, Canon and Nikon are so leary about the auto settings that they provide on their cameras and flashes, that they have added the following features to compensate for the limitations of their auto settings:

1. Modes M, Av, Tv.
2. E-TTL overrides.
3. The ability to split the exposure between body and flash with infinite variations.
4. WB overrides.

The list goes on and on and on....

And you'll never find even one successful pro event/wedding photographer that relies on full auto as a best practice.

Do you really believe that the engineers at Canon and Nikon can create auto camera systems to support all or nearly all shooting situations? Even those two companies don't think so, but it seems you do...why is that?

I just don't think people are reading / listening to what others are saying! They are so set in their opinions that they are not willing to modify their thinking for different situations.

Here are my points.

1 - It is a very short time to the event. During spring summer fall, deppending on where your at. There may be no photographer to hire!
2 - It is not known if the people in question can even afford $50 for a pro! MONEY is a huge factor for alot of people. Not everyone can afford a pro! And I can't understand why people can't get that!
3 - Nobody knows if the person is a pure novice or has some ability. MOST people I know will always side towards describing themselves with less ability than they believe they have. This photo site is proof positive of that. People all the time on here are posting pics that are terrific (not just a shot or two, but many) and yet they call themselves novices / beginner. They obviously have some skill and a good understanding of picture taking. It is a psychological safety net to do that! Of course then there are some others who profess to know it all and they can't even keep the horizon level when taking pics.
4 - His SISTER is the client. Her opinion is more important than anyone on this site. If she asked him, she has her reasons, and not one person on here knows those reasons!
5 - Quality is in the eye of the viewer. His sister might be happy as can be with just so so pictures. You may think they suck, but the fact is, if she is happy with them, thats all is required!
6 - Why not be proactive instead of being negative? Ok, this is a bad situation. Instead of writing a 2 page post on you suck, don't do it, others are wrong, and arguing with others giving opposite advice. Why not take the time and tell them why you are saying that. Not one person listed an example of why it would be so horrable for him to do it!!! Just general references.
7 - Full AUTO mode on a camera and a monkey behind it will take better pictures than no photographer at all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A Bride with no picture cannot cry over its bad quality!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She will be crying because she has none at all!!!!!!!!!!!! My nephew took pictures at my wedding. He is 11. He had a very cheap Vivatar digital. We printed 4 of the pictures he took! To date I have printed 15 pictures from a PRO. My nephew using full AUTO on a CHEAP camera has a higher print vs. shots taken average than a guy I paid $2,200 too!!! There are no guranties!
8 - Nobody has even asked if this is the brides 1st, 2nd, 3rd, wedding. There is a major difference in this fact. Maybe its her third and photos are not that important to her. Many of the people here without ever knowing, is assuming that the photos are extremely important to her!
9 - The Bride may not even care to have photos at all! My mothers 2nd wedding did not have a single photo taken (Vegas wedding, only 3 family members were there). And she could care less, was not important to her (still married to him btw, together 20 years).
10 - The OP is not a PRO and has never claimed to be one. And yet people went after him to prove he was not, and even went out of their way to try and knock him down for professing to be anything more than a pure novice!
11 - There are several people on here whos advice it was to hire a pro. Some said hire one yourself as a gift. Maybe get others to help hire one. They obviously don't mind spending other peoples money. Again there is a time constraint, and I don't know many young people that can come up with a couple hundred real fast to do a gift like that. Again giving advice in a situation when they don't know the whole story yet!!! MONEY is a huge factor for alot of people. They may not be willing to say so, out of embarassment!
12 - If he takes horriable pictures. Is it going to hurt anyone on the forum or any single pro in the world, photography in general? Of course not! I am quite sure everyone in his family knows he is not a pro. And anyone who is close enough friends or family wise that views his pictures, would know he is not a pro.

I am not condoning any novice to just feel free and go out and shoot weddings all they want. I NEVER said that! The problem I have with others just flat out saying your going to ruin it, is they never asked even simple questions about the event! They went into automatic mode YOUR GOING TO SREW IT UP! Not one person took the time to even describe one event that went bad. Reasons that they personally experienced for them to have their opinions. Didn't even spend the few clicks it would take to reference a "horror" post from themselves or another. And yet they spent paragraph's of typing knocking him down, and arguing why they are right to others. Again never posting any examples! Not one person who said don't do it even offered to help! A person was drowning and they filled the pool with more water!

Being a good photographer is more than technical knowledge and a good eye. You also need to be a decent person as well. Because if your a total arse all the time. Nobody is going to want to look at your pics. Could be the best pic in the world, but they wont take the time to look, and if they do, just because your such an arse, they will not give you the benefit of letting you know!

If a guy is drowning throw him a line. If you don't have a line tell him how to get to shore. If he is heading for a water fall, saying hey don't go that way helps no one. Tell him hes heading for a freaking waterfall!!!

 

[Dennis Munn]

Don't listen to all these quys. You got the equipment you need. If you use your flash and put it on automatic you will get great photos. For photos close up flip the flash head up and use a reflector card and let the light bounce off the card and cieling. I have photographed hundrends of weddings over the past 35 years. Relax. Shoot everything that you see. Shoot close ups of flowers rings, people and things. Look for unuasual angles. Get down low for instance if the ceremoney is in a church and shoot the actual cermony with the camera on the floor. Get up high and shoot down on people. Shoot hundrends of photos. You will do fine

 

[benhasajeep48 47]

In your paragpraph above, therein lies the problem with your thinking.

In fact, both Canon and Nikon and all the major brands do in fact find fault with their auto settings. And in fact, BOTH Canon and Nikon advise their pro users NOT to use many of their auto settings as a policy.

--- You keep referring to PRO. And things being done for pro or told to PRO's. What does that have to do with an amature shooting a wedding? Something that you say is wrong to do. You keep pushing that everything has to be done to PRO abilities / standards? Ever think Canon and Nikon do not want to be involved in lawsuits between photographers and customers? This is their out in litigation which happens all too often. WE TOLD THEM AUTO IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR PROFESSIONAL WORK! That is their out!

The list goes on and on and on....

And you'll never find even one successful pro event/wedding photographer that relies on full auto as a best practice.

--- Again you keep brining in PRO experience, qualities, etc. What does telling an amature to rely on full auto have to do with a pro knowing how to use equipemnt? It is obvious that an amature does not have the knowledge to know all the setting and what should be adjusted. Thats the whole reason to stay in full auto as there is a better chance of getting decent pictures. Basically your argument is he has to use manual to get good pics, but since he doesn't know manual, to just not do it.

Do you really believe that the engineers at Canon and Nikon can create auto camera systems to support all or nearly all shooting situations? Even those two companies don't think so, but it seems you do...why is that?

-- I believe this post has only brought up 1 area of photography. And that is a banquet / wedding! NOT ALL SHOOTING situations! I never ever stated that they did or could! I only stated they have been working on it for years and have gotten pretty good at it. And that there was a better than 10% chance a good picture would come from using Auto. And the fact is, if photography was not easier for people to get good results easily with their camera. It would not be as popular as it is today. And that is a fact. Look at all the point and shoot cameras that are sold. Probably 10 to 1 or more to SLR / DSLR. Most of them dont even allow aperature priority or shutter priority. Basically point and shoot cameras. People seem to be happy with the results they get from them! If they didn't, you would not have a minilab in every drug store or wal mart to process their pictures! The facts are, there are way more fully auto cameras than PRO models out there.

 

[pictureme]

benhasajeep and Dennis Munn,Thank you lots ...this is the kind of words people like to read .Even if i got the door closed on me from the get go i still feel confidece and with the good advise i got here and it just boost it up more .I tell you this,ones im on the floor taking pictures im sure ill get some great shots ...all i wanted was advise to see if the equipment i have was good enough...i needed the best settings THATS ALL ...i know how to shoot ,the angles ,close ups etc..... you wll be suprise what pictures i have taking...But im sure ones i load some pictures up after the wedding the grumpy people will find something bad on it ....dont bite your self on the but cause it could cause you pain ones you see what could be done .Thank you and have a great weekend

 

[SilverGlow]

-- I believe this post has only brought up 1 area of photography. And that is a banquet / wedding! NOT ALL SHOOTING situations! I never ever stated that they did or could! I only stated they have been working on it for years and have gotten pretty good at it. And that there was a better than 10% chance a good picture would come from using Auto. And the fact is, if photography was not easier for people to get good results easily with their camera. It would not be as popular as it is today. And that is a fact. Look at all the point and shoot cameras that are sold. Probably 10 to 1 or more to SLR / DSLR. Most of them dont even allow aperature priority or shutter priority. Basically point and shoot cameras. People seem to be happy with the results they get from them! If they didn't, you would not have a minilab in every drug store or wal mart to process their pictures! The facts are, there are way more fully auto cameras than PRO models out there.

Good point!

Ok, in my post above, replace "pro" with "anyone that shoots a wedding".

The OP says he knows all the angles, the shots needed, in the face of being ignorant of the required camera/flash settings...talk about an oximoronic statement!

By the way, I suspect you've never seen the hurt look on a bride's face as she reviews her pictures taken by an over exuberant photographic newbie...sure it was "her idea", but like a lot of ideas, there is that darned regret after the fact. And that regret is there the next day and the next day...especially when shecompares pictures with her other bride friends, and when they see that Sally's pictures are freakin awesome times 10, and they were taken by an advanced newbie that did their homework...well, you better hand her a box of kleenix...

And even for those pros (shooting other genres) that have never shot a wedding, I would advise them too, not to do it unil they have assisted and did their massive homework, so it's not just the newbies that I advise in such a way.

Just because it's the brides idea does not mean one should do it...you forget you're dealing with humans here....sometimes the problem with asking for something is that one often gets it.

If a bride can't afford a $500 pro photog, the I seriously question her reasons for getting married...one must NEVER get married unless they can afford a decent low budget wedding...it sounds like the OP's sister is having a no-budget wedding....I've got two daughters....I raised them to choose better then that...

Youth and immaturity ignores their weaknesses, and the feelings of others....one must know one's limitations. A mature person is not afraid to say NO.

 

[benhasajeep48 47]

Good point!

Ok, in my post above, replace "pro" with "anyone that shoots a wedding".

By the way, I suspect you've never seen the hurt look on a bride's face as she reviews her pictures taken by an over exuberant photographic newbie...

Are you even reading what I have written? Or are you just glossing over it. My wife is the HURT bride you are describing, and it wasn't an over exuberant newbie, it was a PRO with many weddings!! So YES, I have seen it!!!! She is still wanting a wedding album after almost 2 years!!!

The problem I am having is the actual ceremony was messed up. For some reason the reception pics were beter than the ceremony. The church was lit way better than the reception at the Yacht Club. So my only thinking is he must have had a setting wrong and realized it. I don't know. The reception I can understand OOF pics as people are moving around. But having OOF, and impropper exposure in the church shots should be very limited. He had in my opinion an extremely large amount of throw aways! I don't know if others do this or not. But the disc he sent us has every capture. And it just truly dumbfounds me why he would put so many bad pics on the CD?? Maybe he felt I would think I got my monies worth if I saw 800 pics on it? I guess it worked since I have not gone back to strangle him.

And even for those pros that have never shot a wedding, I would advise them too, not to do it unil they have assisted and did their massive homework, so it's not just the newbies that I advise in such a way.

I can't argue that point, and have not argued that point (pro or amatuer).

Just because it's the brides idea does not mean one should do it...you forget you're dealing with humans here....sometimes the problem with asking for something is that one often gets it.

If a bride can't afford a $500 pro photog, the I seriously question her reasons for getting married...one must NEVER get married unless they can afford a decent low budget wedding...it sounds like the OP's sister is having a no-budget wedding....I've got two daughters....I raised them to choose better then that...

So, now your saying poor people should not get married since they can't afford $500 for a wedding photog? How about a Honeymoon. If they can't afford that, should they not get married? What's the minimum income you need to get married? Where do you draw the line? Don't get me wrong, alot of people get married that should not, for alot of reasons. But the simple fact is, it's none of my business!!! Plus I don't totally agree with you. I have a friend who got married at 19 while in college, very very little money, it was a baby comming type deal. They are one of the ones who asked me to take pictures and I declined. Honnestly, I didn't give them that much of a chance. But the fact is they are now married for 18 years, 4 kids, and he makes enough that she is a stay at home mom, and they have a bunch of nice things. So, where do you draw the line?

It's great you have taken the time to raise your children well. You should get kudos for that this day and age. But the fact is, not everyone gets that! And just becasue they don't get that. Doesn't mean their choices in life should be reduced!

Sorry, if I am arguing. Just a couple things with this post does hit home for me. It's just the opposite problem occured for me. I paid at least the medium rate for a photog and got screwed. But that still doesn't make me want to limit someone elses wedding just becasue a pro is not taking pictures. And its not I got screwed, let them get screwed thing either. It's more, you never really know what your going to get dealt type attitued. The cup is half full!

 

[pictureme]

Don't listen to all these quys. You got the equipment you need. If you use your flash and put it on automatic you will get great photos. For photos close up flip the flash head up and use a reflector card and let the light bounce off the card and cieling. I have photographed hundrends of weddings over the past 35 years. Relax. Shoot everything that you see. Shoot close ups of flowers rings, people and things. Look for unuasual angles. Get down low for instance if the ceremoney is in a church and shoot the actual cermony with the camera on the floor. Get up high and shoot down on people. Shoot hundrends of photos. You will do fine

Look at The advise i get from someone who has 35 years under there belt .....NICE

 

[SilverGlow]

Look at The advise i get from someone who has 35 years under there belt .....NICE

He is just ONE "pro".

I would challange you to pose your questions on a true pro wedding forum and see what those pros say? Do you remember statistics from college? If your sample is one person your conclusions are apt to be wrong. If your sampling is 10's, dozens or more then now you are able to plot a trendline.

So ask several more pros and report back with the trend you plot ;-)

 

[pictureme]

He is just ONE "pro".

I would challange you to pose your questions on a true pro wedding forum and see what those pros say? Do you remember statistics from college? If your sample is one person your conclusions are apt to be wrong. If your sampling is 10's, dozens or more then now you are able to plot a trendline.

So ask several more pros and report back with the trend you plot ;-)

Oh i have ,i been to plenty of sites ad pros have told me different ...from good advise to telling me my wrongs in a big different way you do and others here.... i was bashed on here and its sad to see people like your self try to knock people down ....

 

[manaheim]

Hey, picture. You really were not being bashed. People were sharing concern and trying to instill a measure of caution. A lot of people don't realize how major of an undertaking this can be, and how important it is to most brides. Folks here have a lot of experience with it... and many have even gotten themselves into trouble. They just really hate to see others go through the same thing.

They're trying to help.

They're neither belittling you, your skills, or anything.

Don't take it personally.

 

[SilverGlow]

Hey, picture. You really were not being bashed. People were sharing concern and trying to instill a measure of caution. A lot of people don't realize how major of an undertaking this can be, and how important it is to most brides. Folks here have a lot of experience with it... and many have even gotten themselves into trouble. They just really hate to see others go through the same thing.

They're trying to help.

They're neither belittling you, your skills, or anything.

Don't take it personally.

Manaheim is dead right, 100% right on the money...thanks Manaheim, but you're still not getting no Christmas card from me! :lmao: