Here's a fun one...

[e.rose]

(There's an update on the situation in post 17)


**************

(I know... TL;DR :lmao: )

This isn't a do or die kind of situation... but I'm curious as to what you think.

This past weekend my husband played a show (with someone other than the usual band), so of course, I went.

It was in a dive bar, with no lighting, with an original indie songwriter, etc, etc etc.

Joe (the songwriter) is getting ready to record an album, and thinking about trying to put together *some* sort of a tour (although Keith and I both are under the impression that he thinks tours just materialize out of no where and doesn't *really* know how to go about making that happen ), yadda, yadda, yadda.

Well while Keith was rehearsing with Joe and the other players one night, he called me to let me know they *had* the show because he forgot to mention it to me. When telling me that he had a show the following day instead of asking "Do you want to come?" he specifically asked, "Would you want to come and take pictures?".

Right away, a bit irritated, I asked him if he had already offered my services to Joe without discussing it with me first and he said, "No, I just thought maybe you'd want to come and take some shots since that's what you always do, and I forgot to tell you we *had* a show."

He also informed me that Joe already had another photographer, a friend, coming out to the show to photograph. He *did* eventually let me know that he suggested Joe *hire* me, if he was going to have someone shoot the show, but at that point I told Keith that if Joe already had someone coming out, that he shouldn't just drop the original photographer and go with me.

I didn't hear anything more about it the rest of the night or the next day before the show.

So fast forward to the next day... I had my camera with me because, as my husband pointed out, I *always* do After we had been there for a little while, Joe's friend, Bruce, showed up with his camera in hand.

We chatted a little bit... he works as a graphic designer for Olympus... he didn't like the job that their previous product photography photographer was doing, so he decided to learn and took over... etc. Just small talk. Twas cool.

While Bruce was shooting, I left my camera off, next to me on the pool table because I didn't want to get in his way if Joe had specifically asked him to come. 2/3rds of the way through the show, Bruce left and once he was gone *THEN* I picked up my camera. I was shooting mostly to use the show as another opportunity to experiment with my flash. I honestly don't even know how they came out because I haven't looked at them yet (I'm working on some other shoots at the moment). I didn't get up in their faces like I usually would, for the simple fact that I didn't really feel like it that night, nor was I hired to "work" and photograph the show.

After they were done playing and they started to tear down, Joe comes over and thanks me for coming out and *also* thanks me for taking pictures... as if I was there because he had specifically asked me to come and take pictures. :er: THEN he asked if I could take a group shot of the band.

I said sure... I told him I wasn't sure how it would come out because I didn't have a light stand to take my flash off-camera, but that we could try. I *did* get the flash off camera, but I'm sure there's plenty wrong with it (I haven't looked at that one yet either).

Fast forward to TODAY and I get a message from Joe saying:

"Hey Emily. Thanks again for coming out on friday. Any luck with the photos? I'm excited to see how they turned out."

I responded to him:

Honestly, I haven't even looked at them yet. I uploaded them, but I'm finishing up a shoot that I've been working on right now.

I'm going to do the group shot of you guys sitting against the wall after I'm done with this current set I'm working on just so you can have it, but I won't actually go through the rest of them for a little while because I have other shoots to go through.

I honestly wouldn't even count on the shots of you guys playing coming out because I didn't really get any of the shots I would have gone after because I was trying to stay out of Bruce's way, haha. However, if any of them turn out, I'll post them once they're processed.

Have you seen any of the shots Bruce took? How did they come out?

He responds:

Emily- that's cool. Take your time. Bruce's photo's turned out really good. I am trying to work out prices with him for each photo. Just curious- what do you charge per photo/ per hour/ per session? I have nothing to compare too.

I'm afraid to answer that.

The MAIN reason being is that I know Joe doesn't have any money. My husband plays for him practically for free... and when Joe "pays" him for a gig, it's always something in the ballpark of $20 -$50 ($50 being "a lot"). My husband doesn't get out of bed for a gig for less than $100 ($100 being "a little"), but he really likes Joe's music and the other players in the band, and if it were to actually go anywhere, he would love to be a part of it, so he makes an exception.

So KNOWING that Joe doesn't have any money... I don't want to give him my "rates" while he's working out rates with Bruce... because I don't want to undercut Bruce.

I don't want to give Joe any idea of what I would ask for and then have him turn around and say to Bruce, "No, I don't want to pay you that... EMILY only charges $XYZ".

Bruce was there first, and I completely respect that... NOT to mention I was never actually HIRED to shoot the show, and as a result, I didn't even put in as much effort as I *usually* do for the shows I shoot (hired or not). I was more interested in listening to the music than shooting that night. It happens.

But not only do I not want to answer that message because I don't want to undercut Bruce, but I also don't want to undercut Bruce, have Joe completely ditch Bruce's shots, and then want to buy MINE before I even get a chance to look at whether or not I have anything USEABLE.... and I honestly really doubt that I do.

I was just going to *give* him the group shot I took since it was literally a quick shot with plenty wrong with it, I'm sure.

I could give him my rates for shooting the NEXT show if that's what he has in mind, but I *still* don't want to do that until Bruce and Joe have settled on pricing for *Bruce's* shots.

I'm not sure how to approach this particular situation

Whaddaya think?

I'm tempted to contact Bruce and let him know what's going on, but I don't even know what good that would do anyway.

 

[flatflip]

"I could give him my rates for shooting the NEXT show if that's what he has in mind, but I *still* don't want to do that until Bruce and Joe have settled on pricing for *Bruce's* shots."

I read the whole thing and was "thinking" the whole time. Then I read you say this. I think you totally nailed it down yourself.

edit; and I think I'd share that entire concept with Joe.

 

[Derosa]

Holy post, Batman!

Asked and answered

 

[thingsIsee]

that’s a hard one - maybe something along the lines of I don’t know never really thought about it, didn't you hire Bruce for the show? I was just shooting to see what I could get, (experimenting) not really putting my heart in to it. I might have one or two good shots out of the group I took. If I have any good ones I’ll let you look at them and if you like them we can talk about price then.

 

[e.rose]

"I could give him my rates for shooting the NEXT show if that's what he has in mind, but I *still* don't want to do that until Bruce and Joe have settled on pricing for *Bruce's* shots."

I read the whole thing and was "thinking" the whole time. Then I read you say this. I think you totally nailed it down yourself.

edit; and I think I'd share that entire concept with Joe.

Yeah, I guess my only issue is I'm not really going to *know* when they nail down a price, so I'm not really going to know when it's safe to answer him.

I sort of feel like trying to explain that to Joe would sort of be a wasted effort, though. I have a feeling that to him, deciding between photographers is like going to the grocery store and trying to decide between Campbell's or Progressive Chicken Noodle Soup.

Holy post, Batman!

Yeah... I'm good at that. :lmao:

that’s a hard one - maybe something along the lines of I don’t know never really thought about it, didn't you hire Bruce for the show? I was just shooting to see what I could get, (experimenting) not really putting my heart in to it. I might have one or two good shots out of the group I took. If I have any good ones I’ll let you look at them and if you like them we can talk about price then.

Yeah, I guess I could probably do something like that. :thumbup:

 

[Photogger]

Have him email you the rates he has been quoted and you will advise if those seem like good price points for the work he wants done (and what you know he has the ability to pay)

 

[e.rose]

Have him email you the rates he has been quoted and you will advise if those seem like good price points for the work he wants done (and what you know he has the ability to pay)

I don't really think it's my place to get involved in Bruce's business matters, though... and that's exactly what I'd be doing if I were to do that.

 

[mishele]

Hey play it safe......you don't want to burn bridges. Be straight forward w/ the guy. Say look I'm not going to step on the other photographers toes. He was the one that was brought out for a job. Tell him if he is interested, you would gladly talk about prices to shoot another show. You could also say you'll add any photos you got from this last show to the next one you shoot. :greenpbl:

You will come off as a stand up biz person. Which hopefully he will like that about you.

:er:

 

[flatflip]

How about; "Joe, I can't speak for Bruce but I normally charge xyz. I was just kicking around the other night but if you want me to do a shoot LMK. If I do a shoot, please don't invite another photog at the same time."

 

[subscuck]

I don't really think it's my place to get involved in Bruce's business matters, though... and that's exactly what I'd be doing if I were to do that.

I'm a bit confused. Is he asking your rates for the shots you took, or for future shoots? If it's for the future, you're not getting involved in Bruce's business matters, and there is nothing wrong with knowing what Joe is already paying so you can be as competitive as you choose to be. If it's for the shots you took the same night as Bruce, I don't know. Normally when you have contractors bid, it's a blind bid in order to entice everyone to offer their best price up front. If Joe wants to tell you what he's paying Bruce, that's up to him, and again, you're not interfering since it sounds like you're sensitive to the fact that he doesn't have a lot of money and you want to do right by him on price. Personally, I'd ask what Bruce is charging. If none of your shots are worth selling, let him know and tell him you'd be happy to shoot his shows in the future for whatever rate you choose. But that's just me, and what do I know?

 

[kundalini]

I think this is a case of putting the cart before the horse. You've stated that you have not looked at your results from the night and that you were less than enthusiastic about being a shooter. Look at your results... who knows, you may have a gem amongst the coal.

Best bet is to let this one fade and consider future assignments. If you do have that gem, them 'em a bone.

 

[RockstarPhotography]

i'd tell him my rates very depending on how complex you want your shoot to be, how far away it is, what gear I will need, etc etc. Tell him you discuss this with clients only. So if he wants rates, he will have to figure out when the next time he will be wanting pictures and you will need details about location and such so you can scout it out.

 

[Overread]

A tough one - but I'll relate that having contacts in the pro photographers world is just as important as contacts in the client end as well. Pros will cover each other - pass jobs on when they get someone booking a date they've already earmarked etc... Sure it won't always work out all roses, but giving it a chance helps a lot.

I'd say that I'd back the photographer in this case because it comes off to me that Joe is just trying to get cheaper prints and shots (quality won't always matter - if your price is right he'll go for it anyway). Granted this might not net you any work short term, but it might pay off really well long term.

 

[Overread]

I think this is a case of putting the cart before the horse. You've stated that you have not looked at your results from the night and that you were less than enthusiastic about being a shooter. Look at your results... who knows, you may have a gem amongst the coal.

Best bet is to let this one fade and consider future assignments. If you do have that gem, them 'em a bone.

I'd agree with that too actually - offer him a gem or two if you've got them at fair prices 0 but don't offer him the whole shoot since that it stepping on the other photographers feet.

 

[e.rose]

I don't really think it's my place to get involved in Bruce's business matters, though... and that's exactly what I'd be doing if I were to do that.

I'm a bit confused. Is he asking your rates for the shots you took, or for future shoots?

I don't know... Maybe that's what I should respond with... a request for clarification.

I think this is a case of putting the cart before the horse. You've stated that you have not looked at your results from the night and that you were less than enthusiastic about being a shooter. Look at your results... who knows, you may have a gem amongst the coal.

Best bet is to let this one fade and consider future assignments. If you do have that gem, them 'em a bone.

:thumbup: