How to structure your posts to get critiques on your work (C&C)

[Overread]

Going to give this a little bump, I see quite a few new members out for some adivce so I hope this thread can give them a bit of help and direction along the way

 

[camz]

I've been here over two months and was totally ignorant of this thread. Thanks for the guidelines Overread. :thumbup:

 

[gl600]

Thanks for the advice!

 

[bennielou]

Well done.

 

[kkamin]

I disagree. I don't know what authority you are operating from, but you are perpetuating an almost super natural importance with gear, and, by having the photographer state their intentions upfront, it ends up affecting the viewers interpretation of the images. It creates a bias. You want the viewers' initial impressions to be unbiased in order to learn how they are viewing the work. One of the hardest skills an artist must learn is to see through the eyes of the audience, or with fresh eyes. Artists become very attached with their work and it is easy to allow their own perceptions to become skewed. It is often said that success of a work of art is how happy the artist is with their intent being interpreted.

#1 (only exception), yes, presenting a couple images is better than many if you want to get feedback.

#2-#4 Why does any of this matter in the least? Who cares what tripod I used. Who cares what shutter speed I used. A crit isn't centered around tech talk--if my subject is blurry, someone can tell me they'd rather see the subject sharper, but they don't need to give me a shutter speed recommendation--that advice goes into the 'photography talk' sections. The idea is to present your finished work, i.e. the photograph, and have people talk about that.

This thread of yours shouldn't be directed at the people asking for a crit, but to the people giving a crit. That is the problem on most forums. People have a hard time talking about what they see: composition, formal qualities, lighting, themes or messages, colors or tones, posing (where applicable), overall aesthetic, etc.

Usually, all someone who wants a crit needs to say is c&c please.

The non-technical advice you are giving, again, is something that should not a part of the initial posting. Once people start responding to the work, it is then fine to start sharing what you were trying to do. But if you state that up front you are creating a bias in responses. And there is a danger in steering the responses in the direction of what you want to hear.

Again, I don't know what authority you are operating from, but I think it is somewhat irresponsible to post this as a self proclaimed sticky.

Bottom line: photography gear is a tool. It is irrelevant to getting a crit. People shouldn't be thinking about what gear you used while they look at your work. This too could create some bias. If someone shot on a Hassleblad, people might give the image more credit than it is worth. Or conversely, if someone is an adamant Nikon hater, they might react badly to the image. Anyways, if you were an author and wanted to post a short story for review, would you include?: typed on Microsoft Word, used spell check and grammer check, accepted a few sentence syntax recommendations by the program... No, you present your story to be judged on its own accord. The story is what is up for critical analysis.

Again, the person wanting a crit should usually just present their work and hope articulate, insightful people will share their impressions of the work.

: )

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

kkamin, that's all well and good, but what most people are posting on here are "test shots" and "random snaps". A lot of people come here for technical advice, and without some info, it's hard to help.

I could agree with most of your post, if only people were posting well thought out, polished images for critique. But guess what! That is largely NOT the case in this forum.

 

[Overread]

Photography has nothing to do with writing books
What word processor you used in truth will have no effect on your work - however what camera you use does (sorry guys but seriously it does). I try not to fall into the "its all about tech" or the "its all about composition" groups since both groups are rather silly things that focus on the extremes of each area - though inexperience and coming from a more technical background mean that I tend to look more toward gear than artistry (however I do put a part about non-tech bits in the article).

The thing is this if I see a blurry shot I need to know how it was taken in order to know what its blurry. Sure I can guess why it might be blurry and what might be possible solutions but there is no point me writing out a long list of detailed manual exposure suggestions to get the responce back that the OP only has a point and shoot camera with no manual controls. Further knowing what additional gear was used might very well show that there is something being used that might be hindering or might be used to a better advantage.
You can't ignor the gear component of a photo and infact if anything its a safe component to post since it won't bias the responce (sure if someone hate nikon they might bash the image - but chances are that sort of person won't know very much anyway. How much people attribute to the views of others is their own choice) whilst (as you go on to say) posting other detials I suggest might very well blurr the view to the viewers of the image.


The main focus is, I agree, to give up a lot of info all in one post and the reason for that is whilst discussion is a great thing it does not always happen and thus the photographer after C&C has to do more than just show image and ask for input since they might only get a line or two back.

There is also another side to this and that is showing a willingness to learn. Posting 3 or4 images and then C&C please is not showing anything but the images and a little line about what you want. I can garantee most people that see that kind of post won't go into any great depth of posting replies unless they happen to know the photographer who took them or happen to be in a dull spot and the shots say something more to them... mostly people will not bother. You have to show that you are willing and part of that is talking about your work upfront - maybe only go as far as technical and capture details (so not as to bias the viewing) or maybe not. The point it is shows that you are putting more effort in and that makes responders more likley to give a better responce back.

As for my authoritory - I'm a guy (though that might be up for debate I guess since you can't all see me ) on the internet. Same as the rest of you

 

[adversus]

I for one am glad this was bumped, I can see both Overread's and kkamin's points, and I'll keep both in mind while posting my stuff for C&C!

The newbie says thanks

 

[kkamin]

kkamin, that's all well and good, but what most people are posting on here are "test shots" and "random snaps". A lot of people come here for technical advice, and without some info, it's hard to help.

I could agree with most of your post, if only people were posting well thought out, polished images for critique. But guess what! That is largely NOT the case in this forum.

I respect what you are offering the community here by helping advance the pursuit of artistry in photography with enthusiasts. I think you know how I feel about it. I see photography as all art or visual communication and the technical as means to an artistic end. So I think it is great to help people realize the enormous power they have in their hands to express themselves. I think photography appeals to so many people as a hobby because it is so easy to produce an image. Hit a button. Taking a picture takes literally a fraction of a second. Compare that to painting or sculpture. But the danger in that simplicity is that many people just stop there, at the button push, but wonder why their images are not better. Here is an excerpt from "The Photographer's Eye", by Michael Freeman.

"One important reason why intuitive rather than informed photography is so common is that shooting is such as easy, immediate process. Whether the level of thought and planning that goes into a photograph, from none to considerable, the image is created in an instant, as soon as the shutter is pressed. This means that the picture can always be taken casually and without thought, and because it can, it often is."

------------------------

I know these forums are frequented by mainly hobbyists. But I still think if there was enough articulate artists on the forums to give insightful feedbacks it would be enormously beneficial to anyone. The images we create have an emotional and intellectual impact on the viewer, and to be able to relay our experience back to the photographer is a way for that photographer to mature.

 

[kkamin]

Photography has nothing to do with writing books
What word processor you used in truth will have no effect on your work - however what camera you use does (sorry guys but seriously it does).

I think it does if you consider your gear as just a tool. I think camera and lenses are beautiful pieces of technology, but I don't see them contributing to my photographs anymore than Frank Lloyd Wright contributes the sophisticated, mechanical, dump truck that poured cement at the Guggenheim, a key factor in the architecture.

Some of the most beautiful photographs I have seen are Daguerreotypes made over a hundred years ago, captured with very primitive camera and lenses.

There are some specialized areas of photography that require exceptional pieces of technology, such as underwater photography, commercial quality sports photography, high speed night time photography, shooting into the sun, etc. But most people have subject matter that can be shot with almost any D-SLR.

Of course there are aesthetic differences in what different camera sensors produce, and if you use crappy lenses it will degrade your image. But if you have gear that is at a competent level, which does not take much, the image quality is all in the hands of the photographer. The camera is not in their hands but is located in their head. When someone hires a photographer, they do not hire the gear, they hire the person who has the capacity to produce the compelling images. What goes in front of the camera is a thousand times more difficult to master than any technical aspect of capture.

I tend to wonder that people who insist on the importance of gear are just not overly preoccupied with it. I worked as a chef for fifteen years (before school and during school), and if you made me use a $10 knife, but it was sharp, it would not hinder my culinary art one bit. I would still find a way to produce my vision. I use a better knife that costs much, much more, because it is more comfortable to hold for long shifts, it won't chip easily, it's stainless steel, and the edge holds better, but it has no relationship over what I produce.

though inexperience and coming from a more technical background mean that I tend to look more toward gear than artistry (however I do put a part about non-tech bits in the article).

I agree. And I honestly feel the technical side of photography is important, but once it is grasped you need to content with creating some cool images--whether to please yourself or others. Tools are just tools. They are meant to bring some type of vision to fruition. You should respect your tools and care for them, but they are meant to be utilized for their purpose. Photography is pure visual communication, even if someone doesn't realize it--when I view an image I have a strong visceral, emotional reaction as well as an intellectual reaction to it. A photograph can make me feel everything is right in the world or it can make me feel like charging the streets and protesting.

The technical is definitely important when learning a craft but then the universe opens up and you are left with the capability of profoundly expressing yourself in a visual language.

-------------------------------

I do think the problem is not people asking for a crit but the people who give crits. "I don't like it." or "It looks over processed." doesn't help anyone, but does piss off the photographer.

I think we'll disagree. I still think people are looking to get a sense how their images impact the viewer. Not on a technical level but on an emotional and intellectual level. I really don't care what f/stop someone shot at or what camera body they used. I just know they made an image and it is creating a response in me.

 

[LaFoto]

Well, kkamin, also pay attention to the kind of forum Overread put his advice into ... this is "The Beginners' Forum", not one of the Galleries, where - so we all should assume - people already KNOW how to present their work, and have made a decision when they either do or don't add all this technical and "intentional" stuff to their photo presented.

So for those who first in their lives start sharing photos with other viewers, some of them beginners like themselves, some more advanced readers of "The Beginners' Forum", some even pros who still don't deem it beneath themselves going to a "Beginners' Forum" to give some advice, Overread's initial post is helpful.

Agreed, some don't want to share every detail of their thinking when they took the photo right away but rather hear their viewers' thoughts first.

But what is the case with many beginners is - they never really THINK about why they took this or that particular photo. And in encouraging them to put into writing what made them want to frame this or that particular scene helps everyone starting out in this wonderful hobby of ours reflect more on what they are doing and why they did things just the way they did. And to reflect on why like this and not in any other way is a major step towards better photography. I think...

 

[Overread]

And yet I say again photography is not making buildings nor cutting potatos. Of course one can use lesser gear to very very good effect I have never disagreed with that. However when a person is looking to learn and develop as a photographer knowing what gear they have is important to the person who is going to comment. As I said there is no point telling the person to use features that their gear can't produce because they don't have it - whilst alternative methods using the gear they do have will go unmentioned because people don't know they have it. That is why I say list the gear, the settings and such. You are telling people what creative tools you do have and use as well as how you use them - surely how you use creative tools is a massivly key part in any art form. No matter how good your eye is if you can't hold a bush and paint straight nor use a camera correctly you won't ever be able to get the right images.

And many here are at that learning level - they are learning to use the tools of the trade; some start from an artistic background and their composition is natural and fluide whilst others start from the technical - they both however have to know how to turn the camera on to create anything.


And I don't disagree that the level of critique is often low - often its shockingly poor and haphazard - which is why I wrote this. I can't force people to give good critique and most discussions that try to encourage it (on most large photography forums not just here) tends to just get people saying "I don't give it anymore". The fact that most of those tend to be longer term members of the site only harms beginners views as it appears all the "pros" have given up and its beginners aiding beginners.
So I target the other half - get those asking to put up the effort first - if it might attract one or two really good and thought out replies back than the photographer has gained something; and if not the exercise in thinking about their photography (from a technical, artistical or both viewpoints) is something they can at least walk away with.

LaFoto (Welcome back Corinna!!) also makes the point (so I won't repeat) above getting beginners to really think about what they are creating - and getting people to talk about (or write about) what they have created is a big step along that path. I know myself that I wasn't really thinking (and I still often don't) about what I am creating until people started to ask me the question and I had to answer.

 

[kkamin]

Well, kkamin, also pay attention to the kind of forum Overread put his advice into ... this is "The Beginners' Forum", not one of the Galleries, where - so we all should assume - people already KNOW how to present their work, and have made a decision when they either do or don't add all this technical and "intentional" stuff to their photo presented.

I 100% agree with you. If people are posting their work to the 'Beginner's Forum' and not a gallery for a crit, I think his guidelines are great. The reason I was writing a rebuttal to this thread is that it is a hyperlink in his signature and he is very active all over the forum. People are linking to this from all sections and people are often unaware of where it is located, so I personally don't see it in the context of the 'Beginner's Forum' anymore. It just seems like a list of guidelines in general to receive a critique.

 

[Overread]

Interesting point - however you also have to remember that beginners post outside of the beginners area. Infact the posting of images into the beginners section is a more recent change to TPF; in the past all images were posted into the galleries.
I would argue that most more experienced photographers are more intune with how they wish to post and with what kind of responces they want back so the guidlines I have written likley won't affect them since it might not be what they are looking for specifically. However for the many who might not be quite as far along its a refrence point (search google and you can find 1000s) that people can choose to look and that I choose to promote which can help to garner critique in a fashion.

 

[LivinMoore]

Being new here I found this very helpful! Thank you!