"If they pay me more"...

[ORourkeK]

In this example, the product is only inferior because the photographer refused to remove a few things in post

The product was inferior because the photographer was inferior, end of discussion. A professional person would have suggested alternatives, used thier skills to minimize the issue, allowed edit time to correct or refused the job.

As to pre-planning. If you hire a painter to paint your house would you expect them to first look the house. If you hired a mechanic to fix your car wouldn't they need to look at it first. The list goes on and on so why do you find it odd that a professional photographer would want to look at a location first, unless they already have experience with the location. Pros make it go smooth because they already know what they're doing when they walk on the job.

Pre-planning is not the same as going to the location prior to accepting the Job. I agree that you should know your location prior to a shoot. Back to the original topic, I agree that they were an all-around inferior photog.

 

[ORourkeK]

He said/she said situations...never is there a clear-cut disposition of such disagreements when the "facts" are mere speculations...

Yes. I touched this a bit in one of my prior comments. It was an unfair post considering I am unable to provide the photographers POV and the picture itself.

 

[vintagesnaps]

I've lost track of what/who exactly we're talking about! And no, I'm not going back to find out... Weren't you thinking that maybe that FB group isn't one you'd stay with anyway? Although I suppose any group could have some people with cameras that are at best misguided.

I think this is getting into specific or unusual situations. In my area typical drive time would be a half hour, maybe 45 minutes (for people like me that live way out!). So if a prospective job was out of that range it would be getting into extra cost for time and travel. Two hours away? that's definitely out of town and again, additional expense if a photographer wants to do that. So in most situations photographers that I know would check out the venue ahead of time (and that's mostly weddings; I don't know offhand of anyone doing that for a portrait session; I think photographers have already been to various potential locations in the area). I suppose you could at least check a place out online and if it involves travel time, schedule (and bill for) time to visit the venue ahead of time.

I think if you can get a great shot for a client it's a matter of providing a great end result. To do that I think you need to be a darn good photographer, have good camera skills, and know when/how to adjust or edit as needed. I think it's like that with other work, it's a matter of learning the tools of the trade to carry out the skills. You can't do a mediocre job and try to fix it later (well people do, but I think that's poor workmanship to do that on a regular basis). Sometimes it happens that you messed up something and gotta figure out how to fix it, but I don't think you can count on doing that all the time. That to me shows a need for bringing up the skill level.

 

[ORourkeK]

Yes, I have left the group. Thanks for the follow-up. You have explained what I have been trying to say, just more eloquently. I never thought about restricting myself via travel time. Of course, I would expect the cost to be covered by the clients. Is that an arrogant statement? I thought this was pretty standard.

 

[Grandpa Ron]

I find "if they paid me more" a very poor excuse.

But I think the one thing people have not considered is perhaps the photographer was quite happy with the photographs or perhaps satisfied enough. More importantly, were his customer's happy with them?

Back in the film days, I learned that most of the wedding photos were taken with grandma's Kodak Holiday camera. They were carried around in a purse and shown to family and friends. The Pro photos were 8 x 10 and sitting in an album on a shelf somewhere.

It is true that a well edited shot will always outshine a poorly edited shot; especially when compared side by side. But, given the multitude of cell phone photos shot at a wedding, I do not the folks really care so much about a well edited shot.

Heck, these days you can even Bokeh out the background for that artistic look.

 

[DanOstergren]

I guess it depends on the circumstances. In several instances I have been hired to photograph models, but the agency didn't want to pay for editing. So guess what? They didn't get editing. Yes, theres something to be said about "work ethic" and taking pride in the photos we deliver, but time is money and retouching skills are highly specialized and valuable, and that value needs to be respected. If a paying client doesn't see the value in editing, I don't see a reason to deliver edited photos unless said editing was already part of the agreement, or if I love the photo and WANT to edit it.

 

[ORourkeK]

I guess it depends on the circumstances. In several instances I have been hired to photograph models, but the agency didn't want to pay for editing. So guess what? They didn't get editing. Yes, theres something to be said about "work ethic" and taking pride in the photos we deliver, but time is money and retouching skills are highly specialized and valuable, and that value needs to be respected. If a paying client doesn't see the value in editing, I don't see a reason to deliver edited photos unless said editing was already part of the agreement, or if I love the photo and WANT to edit it.

Thanks for the perspective. I never thought of editing being separate from the process, but your comment about the agency brings up a good point. Do you know if that agency turned around and paid someone else to edit the photos?

 

[DanOstergren]

I guess it depends on the circumstances. In several instances I have been hired to photograph models, but the agency didn't want to pay for editing. So guess what? They didn't get editing. Yes, theres something to be said about "work ethic" and taking pride in the photos we deliver, but time is money and retouching skills are highly specialized and valuable, and that value needs to be respected. If a paying client doesn't see the value in editing, I don't see a reason to deliver edited photos unless said editing was already part of the agreement, or if I love the photo and WANT to edit it.

Thanks for the perspective. I never thought of editing being separate from the process, but your comment about the agency brings up a good point. Do you know if that agency turned around and paid someone else to edit the photos?

Not to my knowledge, but I wouldn't be upset if they did; perhaps they like another retoucher's style or skill over my own. I know plenty of retouchers who do much better work than I do. One of the models did contact me and paid me to retouch his favorites though.

It's a very involved process that takes time and care, and in most instances I include editing in my rate or bid without explaining that editing is part of the total. If a potential client asks for cheaper prices, I'll break down the costs for them, and sometimes the editing is sacrificed. I personally don't believe editing should be a crutch and still put a lot of work towards making the images great at the moment of exposure, so I'm confident in my unedited photos. That said, if a photographer isn't putting that sort of care into the exposure itself, saying "if they pay me more I'll do it" probably isn't going to be a good look for them.

 

[smoke665]

@DanOstergren having seen many fine examples of your work, I have serious doubts that your images would ever require editing to remove mistakes such as the OP listed. That said, I thought I read somewhere that agencies preferred shots without editing so as to evaluate the model in their raw form.

 

[CherylL]

I think it takes awhile to train your eye for distractions in the background. When I first started on this forum that was mentioned quite a bit to check all 4 corners of your frame before taking a photo. It took me several years to do this naturally and I still on occasion miss something. I took photos for a friend's masters degree last year. We were at a park and I did check the background except about 6 photos had her shoes off to the side. She had changed from flats to heels once we got to a setting. It didn't take too long to edit out the shoes, but added time on the normal editing & culling.

 

[JoeU]

“A photographer is known by what he shows....”

Any photographer worthy of the title puts his/her best foot forward, period.

 

[vintagesnaps]

Elvis has left the group... Maybe you'll find a group that's a better fit.

I think the time editing is usually part of the contracted work and time. I think that's the thing about creative work, you're getting paid for your talent, time you spent learning and practicing and developing skills, your professional expertise and abillity to work with people and provide finished images in a timely manner, etc. etc. That's what seems to make it harder to price.

I found the same thing Cheryl, that I learned to make my eye move around the viewfinder and look at each corner. Over time it seems I got to the point of being able to take in everything in that rectangle all at once without consciously thinking about it. And you're right about it taking experience, and I think liking it enough to practice practice practice without it being a chore. I've been a photographer forever, and I still like to go out and take pictures, I've never stopped liking it.

 

[DanOstergren]

@DanOstergren having seen many fine examples of your work, I have serious doubts that your images would ever require editing to remove mistakes such as the OP listed. That said, I thought I read somewhere that agencies preferred shots without editing so as to evaluate the model in their raw form.

I've worked with many different agencies, and all of them have different expectations. I don't think there is any set rule, except that each of them has preferred that models not have their pores completely wiped away, as many photographers unfortunately love to do. I think preferring unedited images is a myth however, as most agencies use editorial images in their model's books, all of which have received a high end retouching treatment.