Light & Film, respectively.

[Sbuxo]

Hello all that view this thread.
i bet I'm starting to become notorious for my block-o-texts. :blushing: sorry, i talk a lot.

Before I ask my questions, here's a little about me and my dilemma: I primarily shoot film: (mostly) Tri-X 400 pulled @ 200. My last big project (some may know: The Body Project) was all indoors and used tri-x for the whole project. However, for lighting, I used strong light coming from a computer desk lamp that I positioned according to how I wanted the shadows to look. I never used my hotshoe flash. I have little experience with strobe lighting, and don't intend to start using studio flash any time soon.
On Friday, I'll be having a shoot that requires both indoor and outdoor locations including public restroom stalls (possible low light), outdoor jacuzzi, and a university's library. I do have an off-camera flash for my film slr camera, but all I really know is bouncing light, but even that I can use some tips on.
What confuses me the most is following the f-stop / distance chart on the back of my flash. It frustrates the fxck out of me. Also, I was trying to read up on strobist.com for any help but it's mostly for digital users because it has steps like "repeat until you get desired results". I honestly, don't have time to test rolls and what not, and I'm unemployed so I don't have 15$ to waste on them either.

Here's the deal:
A. Outside I'll be using Tmax..100 or 400, I don't know yet.
B. Inside (bathroom stalls, library, and maybe a parking garage) I'll be using Tri-X, rated at 200! :thumbup:
C. I prefer minimal grain, and I know Tmax is good for that, but I do love my Tri-X from my previous project: i got quite fine grain and beautiful tones. But then again, I wasn't in this dilemma back then. The first rolls for this project, I couldn't do it at 200 so I shot straight 400, the prints came out alright, but the grain was somewhat unbearable for me and I still had to shoot wide open.
where's the shoot myself smiley? :er:

Note: I develop in D-76 and I'm using Fiber paper

Anywho, here are my questions.

1. What do you all suggest for A.?
2. Any suggestions for me on using my flash? It does have a swivel head and tilts up. Oh, and I do have a tripod.
3. I posted this same type of thread on Model Mayhem in Photographer's talk, and someone told me:
"do you like grain or do you need excessive speed? if so, continue to use Tri-X. If not, use Tmax 100 outdoors. If you do choose to use Tmax, make sure you process it carefully and accurately. It is very responsive to changes in development time. If you aren't careful, you'll become one of the ones who say Tmax is a bad film."
-I am a careful developer and printer, so what do you all recommend?
4. Anyone have any sample images of using Tmax 400? I've used Tmax 100 before and got good results, what do you think about 400?

I have other questions but can't think right now.

Thanks in advance for putting up with me and no thanks in advance to any snooty booties who comment.
​

 

[Sbuxo]

Really? No answers. D:

 

[tirediron]

1. I'm an Ilford person; out doors, I'd go with Ilford FP4 (125 ASA) or Ilford Delta 100. FP4 develops just fine in D76. I haven't shot a roll of Kodak negative film in so long I couldn't even begin to suggest the best option.

2. What camera and flash are you using? Definitely learn how to bounce and diffuse your flash. Your best bet would be to borrow a digital body from someone and practice. The chart on your flash should be fairly straight forward: Determine the camera to subject distance, position this over the ASA of your film and read your aperture.

3. Don't know from Kodak. Sorry.

4. See answer #3.

 

[supraman215]

What about a light meter? Could you requisition a cheap one? Or rent one?

 

[christopher walrath]

1. Why not just nail the whole thing with Tri-X? You know it, don't get exotic unless you really have the need.

2. What is your flash's guide number? Let's say, for example's sake, your flash's guide number is 99. Your flash's guide number is the product of the aperture you are using for that shot and the flash to subject distance with ISO100 film and a normal lens. If you shoot at f/11, then the appropriate flash distance would be at nine feet (11x9=99). If you are 12 feet from your subject, the aperture should be set to f/8 (12x8=96 (close enough)). If you rate your Tri-X at 200, then stop down in f-number (f/16 and f/11 in the above examples). And bounced light distance must be taken into account as well. Work with it.

3. See number one.

4.
Butt by flash19901

 

[Derrel]

If you need flash outdoors, I would suggest using a lower ISO film, like 100 or 125, so you do not "run out of synch speed" on bright background areas. You do not specify what camera you have, so synch speeds run the gamut from 1/60 second to 1/90 to 1/125, topping out a 1/250 second on a few 35mm film cameras. With a higher speed film, bright sunshine + flash usually still means plugged up highlights in the bright areas where the flash cannot reach.

I think traditional developers work poorly with T-Max film. D-76, HC-110, Rodinal, all those developers are inferior to T-Max Developer when the exposed film in the developing tank is a T-Max emulsion. I'd rather use Plus-X 125 than T-Max 100, but T-Max 100 is very,very fine-grained. It's also a lot like white balloon bread and $4.99 per half-rack American beer, but I digress.

The f/stop chart on the back of the flash ought not be that confusing. When asking for help, exact model numbers can really help. Is it a purely manual flash, or an Automatic flash? The numbers might be the AUTO f/stops, or the distance and f/stop chart, or both....can't tell without more information. Normally when bouncing, there will be a one-stop to two-stop loss of light, depending on how far the total bounce distance is,and the size and dynamics of the room. A huge,huge room, like say those found in some university libraries, might see two full f/stops' worth of light vanish like "that!". THe normal way to compensate is to use a different AUTO f/stop, or a different manual setting and offset the power (ie. use MORE power) on the flash by deliberately mis-setting the lens's f/stop by a factor of 1,2,or even 3 f/stops.

And yes, you're right about Strobist.com--it's geared toward digital shooters who can "repeat until they get it right", which is one of the major crutches/advantages of shooting with a digital camera....shooting with a WAG as your companion, rather than a flash meter. A WAG is a Wild-Ass Guess for those who don't know. Luckily B&W negative film is quite forgiving of overexposure. The traditional way is to figure the distance to the bounce surface, and then from that surface to the subject, and to figure flash-to-subject distance using that *total bounce* distance. Plus, perhaps a little bit more distance, to account for lost light, especially on "Long throws"; ie, inside a cabin cruiser boat there is very little lost light; inside a vaulted-ceiling lecture hall where the roof is 30 feet up and 40 feet distant, and the subject is quite far away, you're in for a *major* loss of light compared with a direct-flash shot.

 

[Proteus617]

I can't help with the flash, but I do agree with Derrel. Stick with the TriX and grab some PlusX for daylight. Lots more forgiving and looks better in D-76. Also, stand developing in Rodinal has gotten pretty trendy these days. I've found that this technique is very useful for low light situations where metering is iffy or impossible. Does a great job of building shadows and protecting highlights. With it, TriX can be pushed to crazy speeds (ISO 12k+) and still look very good. Too bad you don't have much time to experiment as I would not try this first time out with an important roll.

 

[chmille]

I used the same film that you've been using and I loved it personally. As far as the flash, in my film photography classes we weren't allowed to use a flash and I used the film outside all the time. I feel like I used ISO 400 outside, however these were bright and sunny days. If you think the light conditions are going to be dimmer, then I'd try the 100. I have samples somewhere of the tri-x 400, but I'd have to dig them up, I'll see what i can find.

 

[Sbuxo]

I used the same film that you've been using and I loved it personally. As far as the flash, in my film photography classes we weren't allowed to use a flash and I used the film outside all the time. I feel like I used ISO 400 outside, however these were bright and sunny days. If you think the light conditions are going to be dimmer, then I'd try the 100. I have samples somewhere of the tri-x 400, but I'd have to dig them up, I'll see what i can find.

You have it backwards. And I'm not going to use Tri-X at 400 outdoors especially if it's bright and sunny, the contrast will overkill the shots.

i already decided and bought the Tmax 400 for my low light, so I have a tri-x 400 & a tmax 400. and then a tmax 100 for outside

 

[Early]

Sbuxo or anyone, now I'm confused. I was always under the impression that over exposing b&w film will give you courser grain. With that being said, I was once going to experiment by rating my Tri-x at 600 iso to see if I lost too much detail in the shadows.

 

[ghache]

If you need flash outdoors, I would suggest using a lower ISO film, like 100 or 125, so you do not "run out of synch speed" on bright background areas. You do not specify what camera you have, so synch speeds run the gamut from 1/60 second to 1/90 to 1/125, topping out a 1/250 second on a few 35mm film cameras. With a higher speed film, bright sunshine + flash usually still means plugged up highlights in the bright areas where the flash cannot reach.

I think traditional developers work poorly with T-Max film. D-76, HC-110, Rodinal, all those developers are inferior to T-Max Developer when the exposed film in the developing tank is a T-Max emulsion. I'd rather use Plus-X 125 than T-Max 100, but T-Max 100 is very,very fine-grained. It's also a lot like white balloon bread and $4.99 per half-rack American beer, but I digress.

The f/stop chart on the back of the flash ought not be that confusing. When asking for help, exact model numbers can really help. Is it a purely manual flash, or an Automatic flash? The numbers might be the AUTO f/stops, or the distance and f/stop chart, or both....can't tell without more information. Normally when bouncing, there will be a one-stop to two-stop loss of light, depending on how far the total bounce distance is,and the size and dynamics of the room. A huge,huge room, like say those found in some university libraries, might see two full f/stops' worth of light vanish like "that!". THe normal way to compensate is to use a different AUTO f/stop, or a different manual setting and offset the power (ie. use MORE power) on the flash by deliberately mis-setting the lens's f/stop by a factor of 1,2,or even 3 f/stops.

And yes, you're right about Strobist.com--it's geared toward digital shooters who can "repeat until they get it right", which is one of the major crutches/advantages of shooting with a digital camera....shooting with a WAG as your companion, rather than a flash meter. A WAG is a Wild-Ass Guess for those who don't know. Luckily B&W negative film is quite forgiving of overexposure. The traditional way is to figure the distance to the bounce surface, and then from that surface to the subject, and to figure flash-to-subject distance using that *total bounce* distance. Plus, perhaps a little bit more distance, to account for lost light, especially on "Long throws"; ie, inside a cabin cruiser boat there is very little lost light; inside a vaulted-ceiling lecture hall where the roof is 30 feet up and 40 feet distant, and the subject is quite far away, you're in for a *major* loss of light compared with a direct-flash shot.

Thats what i figured last night.

I bought an old FE and i was playing with a vivitar285HV. I noticed that when bouncing the flash, i had to go down from 1/125, to 1/100 and 2 aperture stop to get a correct exposure on my d90.
This is refering to the scale.

I was using 1/125 as a shutter speed since my FE has a syc speed of 1/125.
with the flash pointed direrctly it the subject, i was able to get correct exposure using the flash iso/aperture/distance scale at 1/125th

now.

the vivitar seems to be good with that shutter speed but what happpen if the sync speed on another camera is 1/80th ? or 1/60th. that scale will be totally off by 2 stopor 3 stop? i am kinda confused.

 

[Derrel]

Here is a decent close-up photo of a 285HV flash calculator scale. The flash in this pohoto is set to ISO 200 (ASA 200, 24 DIN the old Deutsch Industrie N scale) and FULL power, as seen on the small arrow at the 6 o'clcok position on the dial.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidhobby/378835111/sizes/l/in/photostream/

The shutter speed has no impact on the FLASH-lighted areas of the photos. The synch speed only really affects the non-flash-lighted areas of the photo. The synch speed affects mostly the brightest of the background, and how brightly point sources of light (like desk lamps and lightbulbs, Christmas tree lights,etc) are recorded in the photo.

Look at this photo: the "Yellow" f/stop is f/2.8. The "Red" f/stop is f/5.6. The "Aqua-Blue" f/stop if f/11, and the "Purple" f/stop is f/16. THese are what are called the AUTO F/STOPS on the Vivitar 285HV, when the flash is set to ISO 200 and Full Power.

The distance range, from farthest, to closest, is shown by the small lines that run around parts of the dial. If the flash power were to be cut down to 1/2 power, the top part of the dial would rotate clockwise, and the AUTO f/stops would shift, one f/stop value, with lower flash power requiring one f/stop wider (larger) and aperture at each of the four AUTO f/stops.

 

[ghache]

so your telling me shutter speed has no effect on the flashed subject when using a flash?? ohh godddd i just learned something new today.

Ive been working with flash for a few months now and i always though that i would reduce flash impact by having a faster shutter speed? OR a larger aperture.

 

[Derrel]

so your telling me shutter speed has no effect on the flashed subject when using a flash?? ohh godddd i just learned something new today.

Ive been working with flash for a few months now and i always though that i would reduce flash impact by having a faster shutter speed? OR a larger aperture.

Yes, that's what I am saying: the shutter speed has no impact of close-distance areas that are lighted by flash. The shutter speed will control the background exposure, in the areas that are farther away from the flash's beam, or which are completely out of the range of the flash.

The shutter speed is used almost exclusively to control how dark the background is rendered. Fast flash synch speeds like 1/250 second are usually used when the background is bright and sunny, and you want it to look about the way it looks to your eyes. If you want the background to be REALLY bright, and washed out, you could slow the shutter down to say 1/15 second, and blow it out to almost white.

Indoors, like in your living room at night, a 1/250 second shutter speed with flash would make a table or floor lamp look rather dim. BUT, a 1/15 second shutter speed indoors would allow the light coming from a table or floor lampt o actually kind of as we say "burn in", and show up.

 

[ghache]

i did alot of outdoor shoot and most of the time i was able to expose the background/sky correctly using 1/200th (max syc speed for my d90) and some aperture ajustement then was using flash to properly expose the subject.

i knew shutter speed was impacting ambient light the most but didnt did know it was not changing anything when shooting subject at close range with flash.

it also make sence that the scale on these old manual flash have iso/aperture and distance information.



i just bough some kodak BW400CN film. i think ill get out there after work and shoot some portrait with the vivitar/F3