Living in USA/Canada pros and cons?

[bribrius]

While I suspect some sarcasm in the previous, it is worth pointing out that plenty of people are living perfectly happy lives in all those places.

Probably best if you can about active war zones and avoid being an overlty oppressed minority, but other than that people can generally find a way to be happy most anywhere.

And being as she is a contributor to the site, we have a opportunity here to sway her into compliance with posting photos we may find outright fascinating...

 

[bribrius]

Let's not forget that our "freedom" is less about being free to do whatever we want. Is anyone ever free of the work needed to survive? Of course not. If it's not working to make money, then it's working to grow or kill food and get clean water and chop wood to stay warm.

But the Founding Fathers were more concerned with what we were free FROM: government control over our enterprises (be they our possessions or our person.) We ARE free to participate or not participate in "the rat race." We are also free from an overly-controlling state. Yes, there are going to be people who disagree with that, who say that government is getting more and more intrusive, and it probably is in certain ways, but it's also backing off in other ways. Whether or not you feel government is TOO intrusive depends on what you value and what you feel the government is trying to take away from you, or what it is trying to give you.

No, I am also NOT trying to get political. I'm just pointing out that regardless of your positions on taxes, guns, gay marriage, foreign policy, campaign finance, environmental policy, [insert your personal bete-noire here], the fact remains that we often forget about how much freedom we do have. How would we react if, for example, the police were allowed to just randomly come into a bar, make the owners turn off the music and turn on the lights, and the detain everyone in that bar until they checked all our papers? Or how about if the law gave us no protections over activities in our own home? What if there was no "expectation of privacy"? What if the police were allowed to track just anyone by monitoring you on GPS on your phone or car without probable cause?

So when we talk about freedom, it's not just about having enough money to do whatever we want. In terms of lifestyle, savings, possessions, we are only as enslaved as we want to be.

someones drinking the kool aid..

 

[limr30 3]

For that, you get a big red X.

 

[astroNikon]

all depends upon how much "life value" people put into money, possessions, etc and how much they want to work for it.


I like having things too
but my "life strategy" is much different than most people who like to incur debt to move ahead in life .. well, most of the time

 

[Gary A.]

Let's not forget that our "freedom" is less about being free to do whatever we want. Is anyone ever free of the work needed to survive? Of course not. If it's not working to make money, then it's working to grow or kill food and get clean water and chop wood to stay warm.

But the Founding Fathers were more concerned with what we were free FROM: government control over our enterprises (be they our possessions or our person.) We ARE free to participate or not participate in "the rat race." We are also free from an overly-controlling state. Yes, there are going to be people who disagree with that, who say that government is getting more and more intrusive, and it probably is in certain ways, but it's also backing off in other ways. Whether or not you feel government is TOO intrusive depends on what you value and what you feel the government is trying to take away from you, or what it is trying to give you.

No, I am also NOT trying to get political. I'm just pointing out that regardless of your positions on taxes, guns, gay marriage, foreign policy, campaign finance, environmental policy, [insert your personal bete-noire here], the fact remains that we often forget about how much freedom we do have. How would we react if, for example, the police were allowed to just randomly come into a bar, make the owners turn off the music and turn on the lights, and the detain everyone in that bar until they checked all our papers? Or how about if the law gave us no protections over activities in our own home? What if there was no "expectation of privacy"? What if the police were allowed to track just anyone by monitoring you on GPS on your phone or car without probable cause?

So when we talk about freedom, it's not just about having enough money to do whatever we want. In terms of lifestyle, savings, possessions, we are only as enslaved as we want to be.

Our freedoms are not measured by what we accept ... but rather by what we tolerant. We are a very tolerant society. As an example, gun ownership is an expression of our freedom(s). Most 'civilized' societies have little to no tolerance for widespread, non-sport/hunting related gun ownership. Securing said approval for sport/hunting related firearms is difficult. In the US, because of our high tolerance, reluctance to restrict our freedom(s), firearm ownership is much simpler.

 

[astroNikon]

Our freedoms are not measured by what we accept ... but rather by what we tolerant. We are a very tolerant society. As an example, gun ownership is an expression of our freedom(s). Most 'civilized' societies have little to no tolerance for widespread, non-sport/hunting related gun ownership. Securing said approval for sport/hunting related firearms is difficult. In the US, because of our high tolerance, reluctance to restrict our freedom(s), firearm ownership is much simpler.

and the aggresive lobbying of the NRA ...

 

[Gary A.]

Our freedoms are not measured by what we accept ... but rather by what we tolerant. We are a very tolerant society. As an example, gun ownership is an expression of our freedom(s). Most 'civilized' societies have little to no tolerance for widespread, non-sport/hunting related gun ownership. Securing said approval for sport/hunting related firearms is difficult. In the US, because of our high tolerance, reluctance to restrict our freedom(s), firearm ownership is much simpler.

and the aggresive lobbying of the NRA ...

The fact that organizations like the NRA (single purpose political action committee) exists attest to our freedoms and tolerance.

 

[limr30 3]

Our freedoms are not measured by what we accept ... but rather by what we tolerant. We are a very tolerant society. As an example, gun ownership is an expression of our freedom(s). Most 'civilized' societies have little to no tolerance for widespread, non-sport/hunting related gun ownership. Securing said approval for sport/hunting related firearms is difficult. In the US, because of our high tolerance, reluctance to restrict our freedom(s), firearm ownership is much simpler.

and the aggresive lobbying of the NRA ...

True, but as much as I dislike guns and the more rabid members of the NRA, without it, who would push back? Our government was founded on checks and balances and I would argue that this helped create our adversarial culture. When the government can't check itself, then other institutions do it for them - the media, business, grassroots protests, and yes, lobby groups. And there's push-back against those groups as well. Without an adversary, who is there to stop one group or another from being too powerful?

 

[bribrius]

For that, you get a big red X.

lol
I start from the premise of rights don't exist. you are born into a level of freedom allowed to you by others most often supported by state. Rights themselves are a levy of mans imagination as is governing law. Countries do not engage in battles of rights but sheer will and force. Hence the reason supposed international laws and rights are consistently broken and the victor not held accountable. They aren't real. The rights you speak of are undeniable as natural law, and are not rights at all. What you have declared here is that your freedom has been dissected to that of rights, were all taken from you and you settled for what they allowed you to have back. You should have no concern of one tapping your phone or entering your homestead anyway, never mind appreciating a supposed protection from it. If such a transgression arose you should have every ability to defend such transgression with your own use of force if need be. Do you? The proposing of most of what you mention you are protected from are self inflictions derived of the empowerment of state. Without such empowerment the fear would not be there. It is the same empowerment you expect to protect you from itself.
The bill of rights was a allowance of return, not a protection from. which means they were not guaranteed as they were already conceived as potentially taken. From birth your existence is that of what you make and can defend. But as it was the greatest fear of a individual is anarchy and insecurity. So they often are willing to settle in parlay over supposed rights vs. facing the unknown.

 

[photoguy99]

This is starting to devolve into an extremely thinly veiled argument about US politics. This is expressly Not Allowed in this forum.

Go find some other forum for this rot.

 

[Fred Berg]

mmaria; I am curious as to why you think America's health care system is deficient in some way. And FYI: huge major changes have occurred in the recent past, so are we discussing the "system" as it was prior to: "On March 23, 2010, President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act." or after this was enacted?

As far as I know, America had the most advanced medical care in the world, and probably still does.

In our state, every hospital is required to maintain an emergency room, and anyone who goes there with an emergency is treated. Afterward, if said person has insurance, the hospital is happy to send the bill to the insurance carrier. If said person does not have insurance, the hospital writes it off and charges the next insured person's insurance carrier double. So medical insurance rates can get kind of crazy, but most people think they are getting it "free" at work, so they don't complain. Heaven help anyone who is self-employed and wants to buy medical insurance.

here's what I have to say

Here's what I'll say about the health care here: If I ever get any illness more serious than a cold, then I am screwed. There are those who are wealthy and can afford it; there are others who get insurance through work, and they can afford it. There are the very poor who get Medicare/Medicaid and they don't get the benefit of those with really good private insurance, but they still get help in paying for the cost.

Then there are still millions of us who aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but not earning enough to afford to pay for our own health insurance and are not getting diddly squat from our employers.

We are the ones who see this top-rate health care system right in front of us that is blocked because of the prohibitive costs. We're the ones who have to go out of the country to get care if something serious goes wrong.

In addition to what L said...

While I was studying in another country, the University covered the health insurance. We had a student's ambulance but for something more serious we had to go in regular hospitals where the care is not covered by the University.
Long story short, one night I had to go to ER, I had two operations that night and had to spend about a week in the hospital. I was treated as a foreign citizen which meant that I need to pay a lot. My family of course didn't have that money.
What happened? There were some boards and meetings of medical experts from both of the countries justifying the emergency of my operations. They came to conclusion that the operation was indeed that urgent and that I couldn't go to my country and have it at that moment. So, the health insurance from my country paid for it. Can that happen in USA also?

For years I had to go to ER once a month to get two different painkiller injected. How much would that be?

I must do the lasik surgery. It's completely up to me when I'll do it but doctors are pushing me to do it as soon as possible. How much would I pay for it in USA? How much would my regular check ups at ophthalmologist cost? How much are contacts I need to change every two months?

A month or so ago, my boy had to have an emergency operation. I spent the first night with him in the room, my hb spent the second night. We paid nothing. If I was in USA on top of all that mess I'd have to think about paying for it.

When my son and DIL lived in England, she was constantly in praise of the health care system. But then, nobody in her family needed a liver transplant, either.

I don't get this underlined part at all

Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I raised my points with Designer above, and I think it is a fair position. People also come to European countries in this way; notably Munich is a favoured destination for medical tourism amongst rich Arabian and Russian clients, er, patients.

In my country (oh well, my second country) medical tourism is blooming for years. People get the same quality for much less money.

In the UK you would get the kidney transpant for free, I only have praise for the NHS my partner has had diabetes since she was 3 this year because of it she had to have a triple heart bypass 8 weeks later she was back riding her horse

Free at the point of delivery certainly, but in the UK as well as income tax there is a national insurance contribution payable which pays towards the NHS and also funds the state pension scheme.

 

[gsgary]

mmaria; I am curious as to why you think America's health care system is deficient in some way. And FYI: huge major changes have occurred in the recent past, so are we discussing the "system" as it was prior to: "On March 23, 2010, President Obama signed the Affordable Care Act." or after this was enacted?

As far as I know, America had the most advanced medical care in the world, and probably still does.

In our state, every hospital is required to maintain an emergency room, and anyone who goes there with an emergency is treated. Afterward, if said person has insurance, the hospital is happy to send the bill to the insurance carrier. If said person does not have insurance, the hospital writes it off and charges the next insured person's insurance carrier double. So medical insurance rates can get kind of crazy, but most people think they are getting it "free" at work, so they don't complain. Heaven help anyone who is self-employed and wants to buy medical insurance.

here's what I have to say

Here's what I'll say about the health care here: If I ever get any illness more serious than a cold, then I am screwed. There are those who are wealthy and can afford it; there are others who get insurance through work, and they can afford it. There are the very poor who get Medicare/Medicaid and they don't get the benefit of those with really good private insurance, but they still get help in paying for the cost.

Then there are still millions of us who aren't poor enough to qualify for Medicaid, but not earning enough to afford to pay for our own health insurance and are not getting diddly squat from our employers.

We are the ones who see this top-rate health care system right in front of us that is blocked because of the prohibitive costs. We're the ones who have to go out of the country to get care if something serious goes wrong.

In addition to what L said...

While I was studying in another country, the University covered the health insurance. We had a student's ambulance but for something more serious we had to go in regular hospitals where the care is not covered by the University.
Long story short, one night I had to go to ER, I had two operations that night and had to spend about a week in the hospital. I was treated as a foreign citizen which meant that I need to pay a lot. My family of course didn't have that money.
What happened? There were some boards and meetings of medical experts from both of the countries justifying the emergency of my operations. They came to conclusion that the operation was indeed that urgent and that I couldn't go to my country and have it at that moment. So, the health insurance from my country paid for it. Can that happen in USA also?

For years I had to go to ER once a month to get two different painkiller injected. How much would that be?

I must do the lasik surgery. It's completely up to me when I'll do it but doctors are pushing me to do it as soon as possible. How much would I pay for it in USA? How much would my regular check ups at ophthalmologist cost? How much are contacts I need to change every two months?

A month or so ago, my boy had to have an emergency operation. I spent the first night with him in the room, my hb spent the second night. We paid nothing. If I was in USA on top of all that mess I'd have to think about paying for it.

When my son and DIL lived in England, she was constantly in praise of the health care system. But then, nobody in her family needed a liver transplant, either.

I don't get this underlined part at all

Yes, this was in the back of my mind when I raised my points with Designer above, and I think it is a fair position. People also come to European countries in this way; notably Munich is a favoured destination for medical tourism amongst rich Arabian and Russian clients, er, patients.

In my country (oh well, my second country) medical tourism is blooming for years. People get the same quality for much less money.

In the UK you would get the kidney transpant for free, I only have praise for the NHS my partner has had diabetes since she was 3 this year because of it she had to have a triple heart bypass 8 weeks later she was back riding her horse

Free at the point of delivery certainly, but in the UK as well as income tax there is a national insurance contribution payable which pays towards the NHS and also funds the state pension scheme.

Yes but it works out very very cheap

 

[astroNikon]

I just realized one benefit of living further north.

Now that the temps are in the 30's F (-1.1 C), and considering that I do not have access to a refrigerator at work, I can keep my food in the car now without worry of it spoiling. Of course, I do have issues of it freezing.

 

[limr30 3]

For that, you get a big red X.

lol
I start from the premise of rights don't exist. you are born into a level of freedom allowed to you by others most often supported by state. Rights themselves are a levy of mans imagination as is governing law. Countries do not engage in battles of rights but sheer will and force. Hence the reason supposed international laws and rights are consistently broken and the victor not held accountable. They aren't real. The rights you speak of are undeniable as natural law, and are not rights at all. What you have declared here is that your freedom has been dissected to that of rights, were all taken from you and you settled for what they allowed you to have back. You should have no concern of one tapping your phone or entering your homestead anyway, never mind appreciating a supposed protection from it. If such a transgression arose you should have every ability to defend such transgression with your own use of force if need be. Do you? The proposing of most of what you mention you are protected from are self inflictions derived of the empowerment of state. Without such empowerment the fear would not be there. It is the same empowerment you expect to protect you from itself.
The bill of rights was a allowance of return, not a protection from. which means they were not guaranteed as they were already conceived as potentially taken. From birth your existence is that of what you make and can defend. But as it was the greatest fear of a individual is anarchy and insecurity. So they often are willing to settle in parlay over supposed rights vs. facing the unknown.

I disagree with almost all of this, and also think you've got some contradictions in there.

But I'm also not going to go into any further, mostly because I don't feel like it, but also because it strays too far beyond the scope of this thread and has little bearing on the practical advantages or disadvantages of living here or in Canada.

 

[bribrius]

For that, you get a big red X.

lol
I start from the premise of rights don't exist. you are born into a level of freedom allowed to you by others most often supported by state. Rights themselves are a levy of mans imagination as is governing law. Countries do not engage in battles of rights but sheer will and force. Hence the reason supposed international laws and rights are consistently broken and the victor not held accountable. They aren't real. The rights you speak of are undeniable as natural law, and are not rights at all. What you have declared here is that your freedom has been dissected to that of rights, were all taken from you and you settled for what they allowed you to have back. You should have no concern of one tapping your phone or entering your homestead anyway, never mind appreciating a supposed protection from it. If such a transgression arose you should have every ability to defend such transgression with your own use of force if need be. Do you? The proposing of most of what you mention you are protected from are self inflictions derived of the empowerment of state. Without such empowerment the fear would not be there. It is the same empowerment you expect to protect you from itself.
The bill of rights was a allowance of return, not a protection from. which means they were not guaranteed as they were already conceived as potentially taken. From birth your existence is that of what you make and can defend. But as it was the greatest fear of a individual is anarchy and insecurity. So they often are willing to settle in parlay over supposed rights vs. facing the unknown.

I disagree with almost all of this, and also think you've got some contradictions in there.

But I'm also not going to go into any further, mostly because I don't feel like it, but also because it strays too far beyond the scope of this thread and has little bearing on the practical advantages or disadvantages of living here or in Canada.

for the purpose of this thread I think I would choose Canada. More peaceable.. The conversation seems pretty well on target since freedom has been brought up numerous times in the thread and has no political leanings but a critique of what it is.