Losing business to amateurs

[waday]

...Some guilds still persist; one can't practice medicine or law without a state-approved level of competency. At one point professional photography was a sort of craft guild, kept intact by the difficulty of producing good images out of the relatively crude equipment that was extant. One had to be very practiced to focus on fast-moving objects or to judge exposure that couldn't be verified until some time later. And, within certain limits, the public had to pay whatever price was asked...

The same can be said for many "guilds" these days.

For example, law. Free legal advice is everywhere online, and most laws/statutes/etc are published. You can search the web for free sample contracts, leases, and wills. Or, you can pay some website to give you a generic form printed with your name on it for $50. Who is going to pay a lawyer $,$$$ when you can get this online for a pittance?

If anyone knows anyone that's planning on going to law school, don't. It's a joke. Well, unless you can afford Harvard or Yale. Or, don't mind paying it off while working as a barista for the rest of your life.

 

[astroNikon]

The one thing we have a hard time controlling is potential customer "perception" of an industry.

Photography has that problem. With everyone buying a BestBuy $400 camera kit what else is to it?
What is to adding a few lights on poles with an umbrella? A larger lens?
It all looks cheap and easy to do.

So why pay a high price for it?

This reminds me from a few years ago when the computer industry did a gigantic outsourcing.
There was this one website elance.com where people would bid for jobs - as in people would bid LOWER to win a job. There were alot of asian competitors there. A local business, roughly 1/2 mile from me that I did work with had a job out there. They wanted roughly pennies per work hour for development - I calculated that it was paying roughly 1 to 4 dollars per hour on a software system that I knew about. That was similar to nearly everything out there, a job that used to cost $10k and more going for $800 or less. I talked to a Toronto company about their SQL server project. I reviewed with them the issues, conversion steps etc. NONE of the other competitors knew anything about what I told them - that according to the client. But the client then added other criteria without wanting to go away from the low bid win scenario. I pulled out. as I'd rather not work for nothing, than work a ton for close to nothing. I never bothered visiting that website again.

But many industries have this perception problem. Perception from outside of what it takes to get the job done.
and price per quality. The gap $$ from "good enough" quality vs "top quality" cost that Derrel mentions.

And many times, the customer doesn't know that difference.

 

[runnah]

...Some guilds still persist; one can't practice medicine or law without a state-approved level of competency. At one point professional photography was a sort of craft guild, kept intact by the difficulty of producing good images out of the relatively crude equipment that was extant. One had to be very practiced to focus on fast-moving objects or to judge exposure that couldn't be verified until some time later. And, within certain limits, the public had to pay whatever price was asked...

The same can be said for many "guilds" these days.

For example, law. Free legal advice is everywhere online, and most laws/statutes/etc are published. You can search the web for free sample contracts, leases, and wills. Or, you can pay some website to give you a generic form printed with your name on it for $50. Who is going to pay a lawyer $,$$$ when you can get this online for a pittance?

If anyone knows anyone that's planning on going to law school, don't. It's a joke. Well, unless you can afford Harvard or Yale. Or, don't mind paying it off while working as a barista for the rest of your life.

One might argue this is the reason the legal system is filled with BS lawsuits.

 

[bribrius]

...Some guilds still persist; one can't practice medicine or law without a state-approved level of competency. At one point professional photography was a sort of craft guild, kept intact by the difficulty of producing good images out of the relatively crude equipment that was extant. One had to be very practiced to focus on fast-moving objects or to judge exposure that couldn't be verified until some time later. And, within certain limits, the public had to pay whatever price was asked...

The same can be said for many "guilds" these days.

For example, law. Free legal advice is everywhere online, and most laws/statutes/etc are published. You can search the web for free sample contracts, leases, and wills. Or, you can pay some website to give you a generic form printed with your name on it for $50. Who is going to pay a lawyer $,$$$ when you can get this online for a pittance?

If anyone knows anyone that's planning on going to law school, don't. It's a joke. Well, unless you can afford Harvard or Yale. Or, don't mind paying it off while working as a barista for the rest of your life.

me. I like using a lawyer, everything I have had drafted from my prenup to apartment lease to construction contract I go to a lawyer amongst other things.
you can get what you want online, true. But when the lawyer drafts it, and they are your lawyer, they draft it with the inclination that THEY will be going to court to support that position in your best interests. That is a entire different thing than just printing it off your printer. Also if you keep a lawyer on retainer (not now but I have before for things) the more work you give them the lower the cost seems to go as they get to know you. So you get to the point of walking and with your coffee and going over some chit (shooting the chit for a hour) and they bill you for a half hour. My latest attorney is a friend of mines cousin (had him for a few years now) and I will probably me using him for some legal issue my wife is in. But whatever I hand this guy he can figure it out. He was a cop before he turned lawyer and now moved into doing insurance settlements and stuff too so is basically a general everything attorney at this point. I mean no one likes most lawyers, but if sit down and talk with the guy and say "how much to fix this" it basically takes a lot of stress off me and he deals with it whether making it go away or like in one case getting money recovered back when I sued someone (I think I am about to sue someone again I have something going on). I was in some trouble a few years back too, guy put it through to superior court and got the entire thing tossed before trial. Problem now with a insurance company, I think I am just going to call him and tell him to sue them.
I love lawyers (at least the ones I have had). I had one years back he died from a heart attack, I was seriously in remorse as the guy jumped through hoops dealing with things for me and saved me a lot of headache and money in the end. He was a good guy. When I separated from the wife before he went through this checklist preparing for potential divorce and a future custody battle. Didn't end up divorced, but the guy was all over it protecting my azz and getting ready just as he did up the prenup and we had a earlier custodial agreement from years back. They got their purposes, all I am saying.. And the biggest thing is it keeps YOU from having to deal with it. Pass it to them and forget about it. Lawyer can be your best friend.

 

[waday]

One might argue this is the reason the legal system is filled with BS lawsuits.

Absolutely. Someone gets upset because they think their rights have been infringed, so they search the web, someone on a forum tells them to sue, and they sue. Or, they read the laws incorrectly and have to learn the hard/funny way in front of a judge (if it makes it that far).

me....

I understood your point, but I believe you're in a very unique place where (1) you know the lawyer you're dealing with and (2) you can apparently afford to have a lawyer on retainer for everything/anything you want. Many people can't just call up their lawyer on retainer.

I agree: lawyers are great. They are ridiculously expensive, but they are generally pretty good at what they do. Assuming you get a knowledgeable one. (Hey, just like photographers!)

And, I love at least one lawyer: my wife.

 

[sm4him]

The more I think about this specific situation--someone said early on that it didn't really "add up," that it sounded like there was more to the story.
When I think about the universities *I* know something about--spending money on athletic-related matters isn't a biggie to them, and $15K is just chump change. Even for the smaller universities, that amount isn't necessarily a HUGE deal, not enough to necessarily change from a known individual who is providing quality work to this unknown, but free, person.

So I started thinking--I bet she ISN'T working "for free." What does a university athletic department really CARE about?
1. Winning programs.
2. Donors.

I'd bet she is actually PAYING to do their photography, in the form of a sizable donation to their athletic department. After all, she's rich evidently--retired from a six-figure income, and restoring a family villa in France? That says not only RICH, but well-connected. My guess is she's given a sizable donation to the Univ. and called in a "favor" from the university president or athletic director, or someone fairly high up to make this happen.

It still sucks for your friend, but such is life.

 

[Mr. Innuendo]

I had to throw this out there. I was talking to a friend of mine the other night, he's been working as full time photographer for 6-7 years. As a photojournalist he shadowed a Reuters photographer for seven months and does a good job. He told me the other day that he lost a client recently, one he has had for a few years, it made him around 15k a year, shooting sports for one of the local universities. He had no idea what happened, so he went to them and asked, another photographer, and to be honest she does a pretty good job, went to them and said she would do it for free, she retired from a six figure job last year and just wants to shoot things.

So he gets screwed out of trying to make a living by someone that has decided to poach clients at a price photographers can't compete with, free, and she doesn't see anything wrong with it. This is what pisses me and so many other photographers off.

If anyone thinks that amateurs with full time jobs, that can afford to buy the best gear and then shoot for free because they can afford to, doesn't affect other people that are just trying to stay in the business. They have no idea what they are talking about. This is just one example.

Yes, it is just one example.

I've been doing this a while, and I've gotten pretty good at keeping an eye on my competition. I pay attention to the differences between them and me. I know I'm a better photographer but, as your example proves, proficiency often runs a distant second place to price. After all, the almighty dollar is what speaks the loudest.

Did this woman simply offer her services because, if so, she poached no one. Was her intent to put this guy out of work? It certainly wasn't to undercut his rates for her own financial gain. Where does the "poaching" come into play?

To me, this is an example of someone who's fallen victim to not being on top of things. I've lowered rates before to stay competitive, but I've also raised rates, too. Instead of this guy blaming this woman for "poaching" a client, perhaps he should take a look at why it so easily happened. If you want to stay working as a photographer, you have to be a salesman, and what you're selling is yourself; your expertise, your talent and what you can provide.

It's pretty obvious that your friend didn't do that.

 

[imagemaker46]

The problem is with digital anyone can use a digital camera I bet the problem was not so bad when you shot film

Back in the 80's, I heard a lot of the same arguments. While it wasn't shooting for free, it was shooting for the cost of film and developing. But basically the same as they are working for free. Mostly this was focused in areas such as model portfolios, portraits, weddings, sports, editorial, travel, etc. Areas that amateurs saw as fun or sexy to shoot, lost cost of entry, and a client base that was easy to market to.

Photography still is a viable career if one stays ahead of the free or low cost amateurs giving away their work. If they move up a rung on the ladder, you move up two. Stay out of the easily accessible areas that people like to shoot, and move into more skilled, demanding, complicated areas, and where clients are harder to find and market to and there is still a barrier to entry for them to overcome. There competition in those areas are mostly between professionals, the industry is still paying good rates, and the cost of entry keeps the freebie amateurs out. While the rates in those areas have stayed somewhat stagnate, you can still make a decent wage by controlling overhead and production costs.

Vadim Kogay in the motorsports example posted is a good example. He was an amateur trying to work at the professionals level, and he failed. There was a cost and skill barrier to entry, and while he could afford the equipment, he didn't have the investment in skills. But this also fits if you flip it around. A professional driver will also be hampered and frustrated if they join races loaded with amateur drivers and try to make it a profession.

If one wants to make a career in photography, the only viable areas left are those with a high cost and skill barrier, as there is a lack of amateurs trying to break in. Sure, its very competitive, but at least you are competing with professionals for professional wages.

What areas of photography would you suggest aren't accessible to the weekend amateurs?

 

[The_Traveler]

For example, law. Free legal advice is everywhere online, and most laws/statutes/etc are published. You can search the web for free sample contracts, leases, and wills. Or, you can pay some website to give you a generic form printed with your name on it for $50. Who is going to pay a lawyer $,$$$ when you can get this online for a pittance?

If anyone knows anyone that's planning on going to law school, don't. It's a joke. Well, unless you can afford Harvard or Yale. Or, don't mind paying it off while working as a barista for the rest of your life.

Law is a good example of another pyramidal craft structures.
Yes, all this 'free' information has hurt the low end lawyers and the cost of getting in the 'guild' has swamped those who hope to be a 'little' business lawyer.
It hasn't affected those lawyers further up the pyramid.
One of my children went to Georgetown Law Center and is an attorney on Wall Street and, if not rolling in the dough, clearly has more than she needs to spend.

 

[gsgary]

I have a friend that has given up digital and gone back to film shooting weddings and his annual income has doubled he also produces prints in his darkroom which bring in even more money, this last year I have been approached by about 6 couples that wanted their wedding shot on film

 

[The_Traveler]

Like most professional sports where anyone can afford the equipment, the business of photography has becoming more a of real competition among individuals. Except at the very fringes where the equipment is way too expensive for most individuals (electron microscopy for example), an interested amateur can be as well equipped as any pro and thus the competition is among equals.
Meritocracy

 

[waday]

Law is a good example of another pyramidal craft structures.
Yes, all this 'free' information has hurt the low end lawyers and the cost of getting in the 'guild' has swamped those who hope to be a 'little' business lawyer.
It hasn't affected those lawyers further up the pyramid.
One of my children went to Georgetown Law Center and is an attorney on Wall Street and, if not rolling in the dough, clearly has more than she needs to spend.

That's good to hear! I'm glad your daughter has a good, well-paying job!

Unfortunately, my wife was not as lucky out of school. She's pretty much stuck as a temporary, project attorney. After 2 years of trying to find a job, she bit the bullet and became a project attorney (if you don't know what that is, think sitting in a room with 100 other attorneys clicking a mouse for 8 hours a day). After a few years of this, she still has essentially no experience and is open to pretty much any job in law that would offer any experience at any compensation... If your daughter knows of any openings...

 

[imagemaker46]

Unfortunately there is no professional loyalty anymore, that thinking has been changing as the younger generation is replacing the "handshake is my word" generation. The clients I have been working with for many years know that they don't need a lawyer assisted contract when they deal with me. New clients working with much younger people, the contracts are tossed out there right away, they draw them up but I rarely sign them.

I worked for one client several years ago, put in 17 years shooting for them, and what they got from me was consistent high quality images, as I switched to digital I produced more images for them, I gave them more than they asked for, and worked my butt off looking for new and different images. The people that originally hired me all retired or moved on to new jobs, the staff that moved into their places were much younger and within a couple of months, they hired someone in the same age group that worked for half the money, produced half the images and wasn't anywhere near the same skill level as me. I was bothered by it for a while, and then just moved on. They ended up with garbage and have driven what was once a well respected sports group into a third world organization.
They did come back to to cover one of the their big events, and I charged them a much higher fee than before I stopped shooting for them. I gave them great images, which they continued to use 3 years after, all the while using the other person to produce crap. That was the last time I worked for them.

It's just the way it works.

 

[limr29 2]

Lew, does your daughter need a paralegal?

 

[bribrius]

One might argue this is the reason the legal system is filled with BS lawsuits.

Absolutely. Someone gets upset because they think their rights have been infringed, so they search the web, someone on a forum tells them to sue, and they sue. Or, they read the laws incorrectly and have to learn the hard/funny way in front of a judge (if it makes it that far).

me....

I understood your point, but I believe you're in a very unique place where (1) you know the lawyer you're dealing with and (2) you can apparently afford to have a lawyer on retainer for everything/anything you want. Many people can't just call up their lawyer on retainer.

I agree: lawyers are great. They are ridiculously expensive, but they are generally pretty good at what they do. Assuming you get a knowledgeable one. (Hey, just like photographers!)

And, I love at least one lawyer: my wife.

I don't have money. That is why I have had lawyers. To get me out of paying money or to collect from people owing me money. Too limit my own liability as well.
If twenty k is on the table and the lawyer wants four k it is kind of a no brainer which is cheaper.
They don't make much on wills, family docs. But if you round out the service they can supply to including for example insurance suits or a percentage on recovering losses it gives them more income (not at your expense as you are on the losing side to start with) which helps them. Really depends on your exposure to risk and liability and what you have to throw at them they can make money on. Seems if they are able to make money on one side and you throw them something that isn't really paying much they are more apt to do it as they can still show a profit. Lawyers have to eat too. If you just ask them to draw up your will, where they aren't making much money it makes it more difficult. The other thing is the way the world is now, everything is about money and a legal mess. People will apt to not pay you UNTIL you get a lawyer involved. OR try to make you pay something you really shouldn't have to UNTIL you get a lawyer involved. Everyone is out for themselves, so I guess I figure in many cases one kind of needs a lawyer involved so at least they have someone looking out for them. But I rob peter to pay paul I am not rich.

I had a property in foreclosure a few years back I had to pay a lawyer five k to get the damn thing back the bank wouldn't stop the process I went by the recovery date and didn't even know it was being scheduled for auction. Because I owed less than it was worth the bank really didn't seem want to stop it from going to auction. I got it back though (a lot cheaper than what It would have cost me losing it) paid the five k and it all stopped right there. Suddenly they are calling me in to sign paperwork and everything is canceled far as their proceedings. All in how you see it I suppose. Another one of those things though. "okay, how do I stop this and how much $ to make it go away". For the average person to navigate through the legalities that life can bring and be taken seriously at all just usually don't happen. I for instance have little knowledge of how to navigate the legal system. I sure wouldn't hire a amateur but if my lawyer can save me money (i really am like freakn poor) and all the while it helps him take care of his family I cant see how that is a bad thing. I try to throw things his way he can make money on.
way off topic but...
Maybe lawyers and photo professionals do have something in common. Know your customers needs and try to supply them...