Martial Arts

[MDowdey]

sorry gang! i was working most of the weekend!!


i really appreciate all of your input and thoughts. i know 269% more now that i did when i asked the question. my greatest fear is that living in SC wont get me anywhere cause there might not be too many good schools in columbia.

also, i dont want to sound shallow, but when the guy signing me up asks me why im there, im going to tell him the truth. i just want to be able to defend myself. or to put it less mildly, i want to be able to wreck someone. not just any random people. but i need more confidence in myself and this seems like a fun and creative way to do it. i really like the BJJ style, but there arent many people around here willing to teach BJJ. i guess the research continues, thanks for all your help!!!!

md

 

[Artemis]

Dude, learn Drunken fist...and yes...its a real martial art....loook it up duuuddeeettteee!

 

[Luminosity]

Dude, learn Drunken fist...and yes...its a real martial art....loook it up duuuddeeettteee!

:LOL:

 

[voodoocat]

No matter how hard and often you train... there is always someone else who has trained harder and more often.

 

[Bokeh]

LOL@Artemis!


HI again MD. Just a few comments...

my greatest fear is that living in SC wont get me anywhere cause there might not be too many good schools in columbia.

Unfortunately, I fear you may be right, but we won't know for sure until you ask some people on mma.tv - who knows, there may very well be a good school in your area, I apologize, but I just don't hav ea clue about Columbia NC. I do know there are good schools in NC, just don't know where Columbia is.

also, i dont want to sound shallow, but when the guy signing me up asks me why im there, im going to tell him the truth. i just want to be able to defend myself. or to put it less mildly, i want to be able to wreck someone. not just any random people.

Lol, well, obviously if you tell them you want to be able to wreck people, most will probably ask you to leave... I've seen a few people get kicked out of places.

But yeah if you tell them you're interested in self defense, most good schools will tell you to come on in. And if you want self defense, it's muay thai and BJJ all the way. You can't beat that combination.

Just don't forget, you HAVE to learn some kind of grappling. THere's a saying in the fight world that goes "If you can't fight on the ground, you CAN'T fight." Rent some old UFC"s and you'll see many fights where a guy who was really dangerous on his feet found out really quickly how hard it is to throw punches and kicks when someone puts you on your back. Not only that, but even if you don't run across someone who "knows" how to grapple, often times fights "just go to the ground." People only have 2 legs like dogs, and yet even dogs often wind up rolling around on the ground when they fight.

i really like the BJJ style, but there arent many people around here willing to teach BJJ.
md

Again, you will save yourself a lot of misery by signing up at mma.tv and posting a message, asking the same thing you asked here. I can tell you all about martial arts, but I don't know anyone in your area; there are thousands of people on the forum, and I'm sure someone lives right in your own city.

Good luck and keep us posted!! ANd I hear NC is beautiful btw.

 

[Bokeh]

No matter how hard and often you train... there is always someone else who has trained harder and more often.

voodoo, it doesn't even take that. LIke I said in a previous post, I can almost guarantee you if you take a guy that is 5'3" and 130lbs and train him in martial arts for 10 years, he would likely get hurt by someone like Shaq. That's just the way it is. Am I saying "don't bother training"? Definitely not, how many guys do you run across in everyday life like Shaq? I don't think I EVER have. But I've seen plenty of guys like "Tank Abott" and I know if they started something with me I would have a good chance of beating them based on my skills of striking and grappling, however given the choice I would rather NOT considering that anything can happen in a confrontation like that; I could accidently slip and hit my head or something, who knows. So it's best NOT to fight unless you absolutely have to. But as my friend said last night, sometimes peoeple don't give you that option.

Just trying to make the point here that, again, training in martial arts doesn't mean you're going to be able to beat up anyone you run across, even those who have never trained a day in their life. Someone 3x your size only needs ONE good solid shot to your face and you're OUT. It's as simple as that.

For the record, I'm 5'8" and 180#, so it's not like I'm saying this to make people scared of size; only to "respect size." It does matter, quite a bit, if you're talking about a 40# difference or more.

Now, MD, here's the flipside to respecting size. I know a guy in TUlsa that is 175#. He recently entereed a "no holds barred" tournament. There weren't many people in his weight class, so when he won that class, he fought a guy like 205 and beat him too. That's what training "can" do for you. Will it necessarily? No. Is it "likely"? If you train in the right arts, such as MT and BJJ, like this guy did. But don't go picking on Shaq at a lakers game

P.S. I can also tell you that I know plenty of guys 40# less than me that I would not dare mess with "given the choice."

 

[MDowdey]

tracy,

what do the classes look like? is it an assload of people all crowded around one sensei? or are they smaller? i just know from my past experience that i dont learn much and get quite uncomfortable around a bunch of people. i want to learn some inner discipline as well and learning with 40 other people just doesnt seem to be the way to go for that.




md

 

[Bokeh]

tracy,

what do the classes look like? is it an assload of people all crowded around one sensei? or are they smaller? i just know from my past experience that i dont learn much and get quite uncomfortable around a bunch of people. i want to learn some inner discipline as well and learning with 40 other people just doesnt seem to be the way to go for that.
md

Good question ,and interesting issues. Most instructors offer "private lessons." These typically run around $75-100/hour. Interestingly, ours charges $300/hour :shock: Of course ,he also taught chuck norris everything he knows about BJJ. But I digress.

Private lessons, if you can afford them, are a great way to get individualized attention and "focus" in on certain things. However, you will NEVER be able to properly advance your skills if all you ever do is privates, and here's why. The instructor is typically "nicer" when you're 1 on 1. You do NOT want nice, you want what's effective, right? Nice won't help you when Tank gets drunk and starts pushing on you.

Quick story, I knew a guy once who only took privates, and never 'sparred" with people in class. This was NOT at the school I go t onow. He got his blue belt very quickly, and that kind of irritated me a bit. He was also about 40# heavier than me, and not fat. But I knew I could beat the guy simply because he never sparred, and if you don't spar, you don't learn. One day the instructor asked me to spar with him to get him some practice. Without bragging, I pretty much destroyed the guy, and was only going about 90%. The instructor made the comment "Tracy has a lot more mat time." THAT is what it's all about, "mat time." Yes you have to learn technique; with out, you're just a chicken with its head cut off. but technique is not enough, you have to practice it. It would be like taking photography classes and never taking pictures; same thing.

I don't want to sound harsh, but in the spirit of helping you as best I can based on what I know, you will just have to get over not wanting to be in a big group - and trust me, please, you'll get over it QUICKLY, becaues 90% of schools I've ever been to are chock full of nice, friendly people, who love to help other people out. Just think, most of them are probably just like you, they are there not to learn to advanced their bullying abilities, no those guys are typically out smoking, drinking and partying, while you're training. Most people are there to learn self defense,and get tin shape, just like you. Even the "scariest" people that I know, are often the nicest guys to work with.

i wouldn't sweat being i na big group at all; in fact, I would MUCH prefer that, and the reason is because, at least to me, when there are only 5 people in the class, I feel like it's more "competitive" because you have a spotlight on you and no one wants to lose. In a big class, you can get lost in the crowd so to speak.

Another thing about big classes, it's ULTRA important to spar with people of ALL kinds of body types. What if you always train with guys your size or even bigger, and you have to defend yourself against someone who is different? I can tell you what will happen, you will be slightly handicapped because you'r enot used to the different problems that come up with different body types. You have to spar with small fast guys, big slow guys, big fast guys (the worst medium guys, guys your size, short guys, tall guys, everyone.

And women have it even worse!! I see posts from women all the time "I don't want to spar with sweaty guys." HELLO?? WHO do you think is possibly going to be trying to RAPE you, a nice polite 120# hottie? Hardly ,it's going to be someone that you should be learning to defend youself against.

It reeeeally makes me sad to see "cardio kickboxing" classes full of women when that's like the LAST thing they need to be learning. Any time I ge ta chance to preach about the virtues of things like MT and especially BJJ to women I do my best to sway them that way. Usually if a man attacks a woman, he doesn't kick and punch her, he GRAPPLES her to the ground.


P.S. "sensei" is not something someone is called in BJJ and muay thai. Most of the time the instructor is either called by their first name, or possibly "Coach."

 

[Bokeh]

I'll try and keep this short. This is an AMAZING story.

I read an article in "black belt magazine" about 5 years ago I will never forget.

This african-american couple were both black belts in tkd. It was being told from the woman's perspective in tihs article. She said she usually beat her husband in training when they sparred, and had more experience.

Well one day, they got into a heated argument that turned violent. Guess what? It turned to GRAPPLING, which neither of them knew nothing about, and when that's the case the big strong person won; he "mounted" her (that's aposition where someone is on their back, and the other person is completely on their chest) and beat her up bad.

Well after that, she said she signed up at a BJJ class.

 

[Bokeh]

tracy,

what do the classes look like? is it an assload of people all crowded around one sensei? or are they smaller? i just know from my past experience that i dont learn much and get quite uncomfortable around a bunch of people. i want to learn some inner discipline as well and learning with 40 other people just doesnt seem to be the way to go for that.

md

MD, I just re-read your post and I don't think I completely answered you...

You asked what classes are like. I've been to MANY schools in the South and I can tell you they're almost all the same in their format. Typically there are at least 15 people, sometimes 20. The instructor will get up and demonstrated a few "techniques" with someone else while everyone watches, you'll pair up with somoene, and you'll do the technique as well. repeate this for about 3-4 techniques ,and then you'll spar for about 20min.

That's BJJ. Muay thai is obvoiusly different. Most "real" muay thai schools usually do a LOT of padwork. Padwork is also VERY difficult. Try punching an dkicking a bag hard for about 5 min straight. It's a different type of workout than BJJ and vice versa. The format of those classes is usually lik ethis. You come in, warm up with jump rope and stretching, do some shadow boxing, the instructor does some techniques and then the whole class does them. Then, you spend about 20-30min doing padwork; not straight 20min, you'll hold for 3-5min for a guy, and then you'll trade. You'll usually do punches ,knees, elbows and low kicks. All the while the instructor is roaming around watching and critiquing. Pad work is very, very important for a number of reasons I don't feel are relevant to list at this point since the post is already long.

From what I've seen, in muay thai, you usually don't spar 100%. You spar either at about 30% if you're just going light in class, or if you have headgear on, you'll spar at about 80-85%. It's rare to see two guys sparring 100%, because usually the harder you go, the more likely one guy will get hurt. I broke my toe not long ago going at about 80% though so it happens there too.

It IS however, the case, that you go 100% when sparring in grappling. THAT is the huge plus for grappling, is you "can" spar 100% and not worry much about getting hurt. So basically, it's 100% realistic. How's that for training! Can't beat that. cya

 

[MDowdey]

is muay thai the same, or close to the same thing as traditional thai kickboxing? i hate to use this reference, but kinda like the movie bloodsport? lots of knees and elbows? ive been looking in the local phonebook and there are places that teach it, but its $$$, im just wondering if its worth that much to me...


md

 

[Bokeh]

is muay thai the same, or close to the same thing as traditional thai kickboxing? i hate to use this reference, but kinda like the movie bloodsport? lots of knees and elbows? ive been looking in the local phonebook and there are places that teach it, but its $$$, im just wondering if its worth that much to me...
md

I don't usually watch martial arts movies becuase they're so ridiculous (I can't help but watch karate kid because of Elizabeth Shue, my favorite hollywood hottie of all time) but I did see bits and pieces of that movie... Yes, traditional thai kickboxing is what is meant by muay thai. Check out www.saekson.com that's where I do muay thai at. He was a 6 time world champion and a HELL of a nice guy, but inside class he's tough and puts you through a very hard workout. But anyway he has some info on MT there. ndbjj.com also has some info on MT. The guy that teaches there taught my son for a while when he was with Saekson a while back.

For a good MT school, you will probably pay around $80/month. I'm not sure if that's $$$ to you or not. Saekson was like $100 I think. Is MT worth it? Heck yeah! MT is awesome. You will NOT get good self defense paying $30/month at the YMCA for karate classes, trust me.

You are also FAR more likely to find a "good" MT school than BJJ because BJJ is very "new" to the United States. MT is not, it's only become more popular recently because of it's televised effectiveness in events like the UFC and pride.

ANOTHER STORY!! lol.

You can actually see this story yourself: Go to blockbuster and rent ufc #7. Ufc #7 is THE reason I got back into martial arts after a long hiatus from tkd at age 16. In that ufc, a guy named "Marco Ruas" from Brazil fights this GODZILLA sized guy. the guy is like 6'8 and 320# or something crazy like that , AND the guy is strong, in shape and fast. Well, for most of that fight, Marco uses Muay Thai, although he also knows grappling. What eventually took the big guy down was muay thai leg kicks. It was so odd, because after a round or two, the big guy is in the ring and just all of a sudden falls down because he can't stand anymore. It almost looked fake, but it wasn't. You could see the damage on his leg he took from the kicks. That's what MT is known for is leg kicks.

Again, to quote a horrible movie "Road house,"... "Man can't walk, man can't fight." lol True though!

MT would also be great in a club or bar because you do close-range stuf flike knees and elbows. I love knees and elbows. Your elbow is an incredible weopon; you could elbow a wall and it wouldn't even hurt much. I wither in pain when I'm wrestling with my wife and she digs her knife-like elbows into my legs. They hurt BAD! Many NHB fights have been stopped because of elbows because they cut easily.

 

[markc]

Here's a good place to go if you want to get familiar with the basic ideas behind a lot of different styles: Martial Arts FAQ

While I agree with Bokeh that some arts are better than others when it comes to strictly fighting, I do think that saying that they are all still valid choices remains true, depending on what you want out of it and your circumstances. BJJ may be the best ground-fighting style there is for true fighting, but if you can't find a school in your area, that doesn't help too much. Plus, while I'm not really one of them, some people find katas and forms helpful for focus. Some people like the competitions, tournaments, and team aspects. Not everyone is in the same place when it comes to training. Many have to start with one style and then when they have learned certain aspects from that one, move on to others.

My advice is to pick one that apeals to you to start with. You can have the best teacher in the best art, but it does you no good if you have no interest in the class and don't go. Look to see what's available in your area and look up the styles in the FAQ. Pick a few schools that look good to you and then visit them. They may treat it like they are interviewing you for admission, but really you are interviewing them to see if they will give you what you want in training.

After you pick a place, make sure you go. And while you are doing this, grab some magazines and books to become familiar with the styles that interest you that might not be available in your area. If you develope a strong enough interest in one of them, and you start to see shortcomings in your current style, it may even prompt a move if you become serious enough about it.

My personal training has been with Shao Lin Wu Su Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu, and a little of Akido. I'm not taking anything now, but I'm not sure what I would get involved in if I could go back. BJJ would be on the short list.

And my personal view on tournaments: If you are serious about the self-defense aspects of the art, stay away from them. Most of them are set up to be a sport and and safe as possible, considering what you are doing. You end up training yourself to avoid groin shots and strikes to the neck: things that could save your life. That guy with the knife doesn't give a damn if you just scored a point. He just wants your money. If you want a sport, they can be great, but some schools focus on just beating the other schools.

 

[markc]

Not to gang up on one art, but I have to second the notion of not taking TKD if you want serious fighting technique. It's a great sport, but one of the things I was taught is to never kick above the groin. It's a waste of energy and too easy to avoid by someone who is trained. A roundhouse can pack a whallop if it connects, but it has to connect. Several of the Wing Chun moves I learned involved dealing with these kind of kicks specifically; getting in close while the person is spinning around and delivering a nice kidney shot, etc. Wing Chun isn't perfect, but I really liked the in-your-face aspect of the art.

 

[Bokeh]

OMG!! Awesome advice from Mark C!!

BJJ may be the best ground-fighting style there is for true fighting, but if you can't find a school in your area, that doesn't help too much.

ABSOLUTELY true! I hope there is a good BJJ school in MD's area... but there may not unless it's a good size city. I'm going to find out for him when I get a chance.

I have known many people over the years who have travelled ridiculous distances to learn BJJ. Carlos has many people come down from OKC, and at that last seminar a few came from as far as NYC. That's how important it is to learn good ground skillz.

Plus, while I'm not really one of them, some people find katas and forms helpful for focus.

I won't argue with that, but I do feel there are better ways. A big reason to do pad work in MT is focus. And I just can't help but cite Bruce Lee, who most people considering one of the greatest students of martial arts, when he said that kata were worthless.

My advice is to pick one that apeals to you to start with. You can have the best teacher in the best art, but it does you no good if you have no interest in the class and don't go.

That's true... although MD said his primary reason was self defense, so if he's really interested in something that won't work, I would still recommend he goes to a class he's not interested in but will work. Often people aren't "interested" in something because it looks "too hard" or as I said befor emany woman are concerned with sparring with sweaty guys. Well, you ca't take the "path of least resistence" to self defense; it's going to be hard. But I can tell you it sure feels good to put a bully in his place when he tries and push you around - it feels REALLY good.

Look to see what's available in your area and look up the styles in the FAQ.

Also check out http://www.mma.tv/tuf

After you pick a place, make sure you go.

That's one of the best pieces of advice yet, I forgot to talk about that. You can sign up at the best school in the world, but if you don't go "at least" 2x/week, you'll never get good. And also, people who go more often will eventually pass you if you're initially ranked higher. I used to be able to beat a guy in our school who now kills me because he lives at the school basically. He's also passed me in rank.

And my personal view on tournaments: If you are serious about the self-defense aspects of the art, stay away from them. Most of them are set up to be a sport and and safe as possible, considering what you are doing.

I agree in part, and disent in part. It's true, tournaments do have downsides, they are more sport-oriented, with time limits and stuff. I always laugh at karate tournaments where they break up the action and "reset" after a guy gets a point. Yeah, that'll happen in a bar.

But BJJ tournaments have fewer negatives. You DO go 100%, even more so than in class. It helps in your confidence to get up in front of 200 people and go with another guy. It's incredibly difficult at first, almost surreal, but you get used to it. I'm competing in Jan. There are negatives, but there are positives as well. It also pushes you to a higher level of training.

what I hate most about tournaments is hearing this phrase: "You're ahead, just STAY THERE!"

Argh.