Martial Arts

[markc]

Thanks!

Plus, while I'm not really one of them, some people find katas and forms helpful for focus.

I won't argue with that, but I do feel there are better ways. A big reason to do pad work in MT is focus. And I just can't help but cite Bruce Less, who most people considering one of the greatest students of martial arts, when he said that kata were worthless.

I guess I'm just not a fan of absolutes. Everything has to be taken in context, and while they may have been worthless for what Bruce was after, I know people who feel otherwise. Again, it's not what I'm after either, but everyone is made differently.

My advice is to pick one that apeals to you to start with. You can have the best teacher in the best art, but it does you no good if you have no interest in the class and don't go.

That's true... although MD said his primary reason was self defense, so if he's really interested in something that won't work, I would still recommend he goes to a class he's not interested in but will work.

I know what you are going for, but I've seen enough people give up that I think it's important to get a "hook" in first. Our culture is one of short attention spans, so keeping an interest is important. Of course it's all a big balancing act. Learning a poor art will instill you with all sorts of bad habits that have to be unlearned. I guess what I was going for was to pick something you think you could stick with for a while, but still gives you some real training. It doesn't have to be perfect. Once you get the swing of things and develop the habit of attending classes, you can always switch to something more demanding.

And my personal view on tournaments: If you are serious about the self-defense aspects of the art, stay away from them.

I agree in part, and disent in part.
...
But BJJ tournaments have fewer negatives. You DO go 100%, even more so than in class. It helps in your confidence to get up in front of 200 people and go with another guy..

That's cool. Of course all the tournaments I've been exposed to (which isn't much) have been in arts I would be taking anyway, so that colors things. Well, then there's the ones you've been talking about that I've seen on television recently. Not something that's available at the local clubs, but man, those things are REAL. Ouchies.

I think we are saying the same thing, just with a diferent "flavor".

 

[Bokeh]

More good input!

I really don't have anything to disagree with in your post, I'll even leave the kata issue alone I see your point.

Well, then there's the ones you've been talking about that I've seen on television recently. Not something that's available at the local clubs, but man, those things are REAL. Ouchies.

Well, they're definitely closer to real than a tournament, that's for sure. If you want to see real, rent some of the first several ufc's - they had two rules: No biting, no gouging the eyes. Everything else was allowed including groin strikes (OUCH!). But, tha'ts also what got them illegalized in almost all states. Nowadays there are a number of rules to make it more "tame" for the public so as t onot attract attention from religious groups and politicans. It was actually religious groups that gave NHB (no holds barred) fighting the hardest time originally. I lived in Tulsa at the time that Royce Gracie fought at the state fair. That was an amazing UFC, and one of the most famous, becuase Royce, at 180#, beat a really great wrestler who weighed 260#. I wasn't into martial arts at the time or I would have gone to watch it. Again, UFC 7 got me back into training again by seeing something that was actually effective.

Most people don't realize how much strategy, skill, athleticism and years of training is involved in an NHB match, much more so than boxing IMHO where only the hands are involved. In NHB matches, a guy doesn't get hit 1000 times in the head and make him stupid. There is an endless combination of moves that go on. It requires a lot of intelligence on top of ability. It's not near as brutal as one might think. I've done NHB type sparring many times but haven't actually been in a real match, mainly since it's illegal here in TeXas.

Mark, this is a stupid question, but I'm a southern boy; how far are you from Rhode Island? I ask because Tim Burrill has a school in Rhode Island. I know there are lots of good schools in NY.

cya

 

[havoc]

Wow, this thread has taken off... I agree with everyone here to a certain extent, but there are some areas i would like to have you guys think about.

Bok, you are really playing up the art that you study, and your really downplaying all other arts.

I do agree however, that an art that focuses on both stand up fighting and grappling is more benefical in hand to hand combat, but not self defense.'

I think you guys are confusing HTHC with self defense. If you want to protect yourself from an attacker then you will use self defense. If you wanna fight someone and possibly kill them, then you use HTHC.

If your only concern is wanting to protect yourself then quite honestly Bokeh, your art is probably not a good choice. In self defense your only consern is to deliver a crippling blow in the least amount of time. You don't wanna hang around with a rapist and grapple him, you wanna kick him in the nuts, shove his nose into his brain and run like hell. Your not going to want to wait around for him to get up and continue to fight. Arts like Karate, TKD and aikido if taught properly are far more effective then grappling for self defense.

Also given the fact that in a self defense situation, you are not going to come accross someone that is "trained" cuz 99.9% of "trained" people have some moral training to back up their skills. You will run into some thug that either has a gun, or a knife, or will try and shove you around and scare you into doing what they ask. Sure a round house kick is wild and uncontrolled, but chances are that a thug isn't going to be prepared for someone to fight back. That is why what you call "Mcdojo's" teach combo moves. If you miss with the round house they want you to be in a position to follow with a groin punch etc. Sure someone with training that is expecting you to attack will most likely be able to block your round house, but a common thug will be thrown off guard.

I understand MD wanting to know how to kick somones ass, it feels good to be confident in your safety. If fighting for sport or combat is for you then i would look at the grappling arts. If i just wanna suprise someone that is attacking me and run the hell away like most people, then i would look into a "Mcdojo" as long as the sensei doesn't have an over inflated ego.

 

[Bokeh]

Bok, you are really playing up the art that you study, and your really downplaying all other arts.

No, actually, there's no debate there; as I mentioned earlier, it's already been proven in events like the UFC and Pride which arts work, and which arts don't.

If i just wanna suprise someone that is attacking me and run the hell away like most people, then i would look into a "Mcdojo"

Well, best of luck with that - I just hope you can run faster than the other guy can

If your only concern is wanting to protect yourself then quite honestly Bokeh, your art is probably not a good choice.

Really? Wow. Well, I hope you don't take it personally if I choose not to debate with you on that. I've been through that debate with people in the past and it never goes anywhere. All I can say is, I would recommend to you to go to blockbuster and rent any of a variety of "reality combat" videos and you'll see for yourself what works and what doesn't.

I'm actually off to BJJ class guys, take care.

 

[havoc]

You missed the point of what i was saying. What i said is if you wanna protect yourself then UFC style fighting is not for you, If you wanna hang out and fight someone just to be an asshole, then OK UFC is perfect.
People who are interested in true self defense will all tell you that they don't wanna "hang out" and fight someone, they want to habe the confidence and ability to deliver a quick critical blow and then escape. There is no escaping in UFC style fighting, your locked in a cage till one man is left. Self defense and combat are two completely different situations, with many different martial arts to satisfy both needs.
I have seen UFC and some "real combat" videos. Those people are fighting bevause they have to, or they want to. In fact UFC and real combat videos are completly irrelevent to self defense and what choices people should make when picking a "self defense" training art.

The only real fact when everything is boiled down to its purest argument, is that if someone wants to hurt/kill you, they won't use their bare hands, and you won't get a chance to show off your grappling moves, because they will use a gun, and no matter how fast you are, your not faster then a bullet.
If someone comes at you and wants to fight, your art, though sometimes effective, will only serve to hurt you in the long run. People who fight generally don't do it alone, they bring friends. And you can't grapple 2or 3 people at once. That is why being able to deliver 1 or 2 critical hits and then fleeing is in the long run more benefical to you.
Of course it doesn't sound like you are reffering to self defense, or even HTHC, your talking about street fighting, which is stupidity at its finest. UFC style fighting is at best only arguably a sport. And if you stick around in the street to fight in a UFC style instead of trying to defend yourdelf and flee at the first abailable moment, then you are even dumber then the original assilant.

 

[MDowdey]

havoc, when did this turn personal? geez, ask a simple question, start a heated debate. the fact is there are too many options and im going to look through them all to see whats best for me.

md

 

[Bokeh]

You missed the point of what i was saying. What i said is if you wanna protect yourself then UFC style fighting is not for you, If you wanna hang out and fight someone just to be an asshole, then OK UFC is perfect.

Uhhhh... ok.

People who are interested in true self defense will all tell you that they don't wanna "hang out" and fight someone, they want to habe the confidence and ability to deliver a quick critical blow and then escape. There is no escaping in UFC style fighting, your locked in a cage till one man is left. Self defense and combat are two completely different situations, with many different martial arts to satisfy both needs.
I have seen UFC and some "real combat" videos. Those people are fighting bevause they have to, or they want to. In fact UFC and real combat videos are completly irrelevent to self defense and what choices people should make when picking a "self defense" training art.

The only real fact when everything is boiled down to its purest argument, is that if someone wants to hurt/kill you, they won't use their bare hands, and you won't get a chance to show off your grappling moves, because they will use a gun, and no matter how fast you are, your not faster then a bullet.
If someone comes at you and wants to fight, your art, though sometimes effective, will only serve to hurt you in the long run. People who fight generally don't do it alone, they bring friends. And you can't grapple 2or 3 people at once. That is why being able to deliver 1 or 2 critical hits and then fleeing is in the long run more benefical to you.
Of course it doesn't sound like you are reffering to self defense, or even HTHC, your talking about street fighting, which is stupidity at its finest. UFC style fighting is at best only arguably a sport. And if you stick around in the street to fight in a UFC style instead of trying to defend yourdelf and flee at the first abailable moment, then you are even dumber then the original assilant.

Uhhhh... LOL! Okay man. Have fun. I wish you all the luck in the world. If you have anything else to say to me do it via email at j2eeconsulting@yahoo.com. I see no reason to continue with this line of exchange though as it is truly laughable. Either that, or you're trolling.

 

[Digital Matt]

I think if you are going into it just to learn how to fight, and beat someone else up, you are going into it for the wrong reasons. I've been on this earth 28 years, and never taken a martial arts class of any kind, and I've also never gotten myself into a situation I couldn't walk or talk my way out of, and I've been in some serious situations.

 

[MDowdey]

I think if you are going into it just to learn how to fight, and beat someone else up, you are going into it for the wrong reasons. I've been on this earth 28 years, and never taken a martial arts class of any kind, and I've also never gotten myself into a situation I couldn't walk or talk my way out of, and I've been in some serious situations.

its not that i want to beat someone up, i want to learn how to fight. its becoming an increasingly difficult and dangerous world, and this would be just one more tool to use in case i got myself in a tight spot. sure, i wont ever use it probably, but its there. plus it would teach me discipline and a solid work ethic


md

 

[Bokeh]

its not that i want to beat someone up, i want to learn how to fight. its becoming an increasingly difficult and dangerous world, and this would be just one more tool to use in case i got myself in a tight spot. sure, i wont ever use it probably, but its there. plus it would teach me discipline and a solid work ethic
md

EXaaaactly. That's exactly how I feel. Will it get me out of a robbery? Heck no! I'd give the guy my wallet and run. He's the coward with the gun, not me.

MD never said he wanted to beat people up for no reason, only if they mess with him. That's a perfectly valid reason to take martial arts. In all the years I've been training, I have never once run across someone who was a bully taking classes to become a more effective bully. Like I said, the bully's are at the bar, smoking, drinking and getting fat.

And i completely disagree with the notion that you can "talk your way' out of any situation. Unless you're going to completely roll over and bow down to someone, or become a hermit and never leave your house, there WILL be a time when someone will get in your face for next to no reason at all. I for one refuse to let someone push me around, or anyone that I'm with. Forget that. Sorry if it makes me seem like a hot-head, because I'm not, I just don't take no $. Life's too short to be bullied around by some redneck.

One thing I heard Tank Abott say on tv once, although I think this is taking it too far, but it sounded kinda cool. He got kicked out of the UFC for beating up someone in the crowd. They woudln't let him fight after that for a long time. His response was "Hey, I'm not a kid on a playground. If you say something toward me I don't like I'm going to show up on your doorstep." Again that's a ltitle extreme, but I sometimes feel like as a society we've become so "turn the other cheek" that people don't stand up for what is right. Principle means a lot to me.

 

[Digital Matt]

Well, I guess the difference between you and I is, I think life is too short to let some redneck and his bullying bother me. I'll walk away every time.

 

[MDowdey]

Well, I guess the difference between you and I is, I think life is too short to let some redneck and his bullying bother me. I'll walk away every time.

matt, i agree with you everytime bro, but what about that one time where they wont let you walk away....


and we have way more rednecks here to worry about


md

 

[havoc]

I think Matt has it right. So what if the guy is trying to get you to fight, the better man walks away... Everytime

I have seen Tank Abbott, and i am glad he was suspended for his behavior. He is a total white trash loser, certainly not a role model, unless your wanting to become a bar fighting alcoholic.

I am not Trolling Bokeh, nor am i looking to get into some lame forum fight with you over an opinion. I am more then willing to hear your responses and respect your opinion even if i happen to disagree. I do believe though if you are going to lay down your opinion in a public forum, then you should be willing to debate or defend your position, not just lay down your piece, quote someone else and then say you refuse to further discuss it in the forum. I saw you do that more then once in this thread to me and others and it kind of irked me the wrong way. I do appologize if you got upset, and i appologize if i made it alittle to personal.

 

[MDowdey]

I do believe though if you are going to lay down your opinion in a public forum, then you should be willing to debate or defend your position, not just lay down your piece, quote someone else and then say you refuse to further discuss it in the forum.

true. if i had started this thread as a debate. i think we have all said what we needed to say here anyways..good points everyone. im going back to half life 2. at least i can shoot them if they talk back


md

 

[Digital Matt]

Hehe, MD, I live in Ohio dude. It's pretty much redneck central

In all honesty, I've never ever been in a situation where I couldn't walk away. I dunno what to say. If I see someone is drunk, or pissed off, (it's certainly not because of me, because I'm a really nice guy who doesn't step on toes), I walk away. I don't talk to them. I ignore them. If they are forcing me to talk them, I charm the hell out of them and walk away. I don't see a reason to fight. Sometimes I see people and I think they could use a good ass whuppin, but I know it won't actually help them, or help me feel any better.

If I was in a life or death situation, martial arts would come in real handy, but I don't plan for things like that in my life. I'm too busy thinking about livin, not dyin, or how to avoid it. If that day comes along, I'll let instinct and adrenaline take over, and years of pent up frustration from all the fights I've walked away from. I hope that day never comes.