Missed opportunity

[Rick58]

I must have deleted that post while you were typing. It isn't worth the argument.
Is it too much to ask? Of course not.
Do I understand what needs to be said beyond "C&C would be appreciated"? Not really.
Lets shoot it in the head and move on

 

[Demers18]

I must have deleted that post while you were typing. It isn't worth the argument.
Is it too much to ask? Of course not.
Do I understand what needs to be said beyond "C&C would be appreciated"? Not really.
Lets shot it in the head and move on

There nothing wrong with a good debate and I find it unfortunate that you relate with that kind of comment.

It's completely fine if we don't agree, just as it's fine if we do agree. The fun part of the process is the debate and trying to understand the others point of view.

 

[The_Traveler]

When you take your car into the garage, do you just say, 'Fix it'?
When you go to the doctor, do you just say, 'Make me better?'

If you do either of these, the end result is not optimal.

No, although they might be able to diagnose some issues without you, you tell them what you think is wrong.
You take some responsibility.

Same here.
If your pictures don't attract attention, you need to engage people to interact.

And you do that by meeting them part way, by telling them where you think the picture is weak or why you think that certain things don't work.

In short, you work with them, rather than doing nothing and just sitting back and blaming the lack of response on them.

 

[Derrel]

One of the most interesting, and also most ironic, things that a fellow TPF member told me was an observation that he had made, which was that the photos that, as he put it, "really suck are the ones that get lots of C&C", while the better work often "gets like two comments then gets buried." I have noticed that as well...images that reflect very poor, poor methods (poor technique, poor composition, poor processing, questionable taste, and so on) have massive C&C heaped upon them.

But here on TPF, the better quality images often have very little attention payed to them. Does that seem right?

Perhaps intermediate and more advanced shooters need a better outlet, a better vehicle for the C&C they want and or need???

 

[Demers18]

One of the most interesting, and also most ironic, things that a fellow TPF member told me was an observation that he had made, which was that the photos that, as he put it, "really suck are the ones that get lots of C&C", while the better work often "gets like two comments then gets buried." I have noticed that as well...images that reflect very poor, poor methods (poor technique, poor composition, poor processing, questionable taste, and so on) have massive C&C heaped upon them.

But here on TPF, the better quality images often have very little attention payed to them. Does that seem right?

Perhaps intermediate and more advanced shooters need a better outlet, a better vehicle for the C&C they want and or need???

I completely agree. But how do we, as a group, help create that movement. It would require a conscious effort from all of us to achieve that.

I think a thread like this is a start and hopefully others will jump on board. I know I've been making a point to try to give feedback as much as I can, within my capabilities, as I really appreciate it when I get feedback.

 

[Overread]

One of the most interesting, and also most ironic, things that a fellow TPF member told me was an observation that he had made, which was that the photos that, as he put it, "really suck are the ones that get lots of C&C", while the better work often "gets like two comments then gets buried." I have noticed that as well...images that reflect very poor, poor methods (poor technique, poor composition, poor processing, questionable taste, and so on) have massive C&C heaped upon them.

But here on TPF, the better quality images often have very little attention payed to them. Does that seem right?

Perhaps intermediate and more advanced shooters need a better outlet, a better vehicle for the C&C they want and or need???

I'd say that that is not a TPF unique element. Critique for intermediate and advanced photographers is an issue on almost every single forum/photo community I've been to (with - again - the sometime exception of very small very focused groups).

In general I suspect its because getting to intermediate isn't too difficult. Most people can get there and most people also know "how" they got there. Knowing how they got there and what they had to learn to get there gives them the understanding to be able to easily impart that info to the less experienced photographers. Even if they don't know all the maths and physics behind it all they know enough to advance the beginner to a similar stage.

The problem is moving up from intermediate is less structured an area (esp when self learning). So there is less structure and the advances are much slower and become a little more intuitive. So people lose touch with the structure of how they are learning and also don't recognise how they've advanced. Indeed I've known quite a few very experienced photographers who are convinced that the very basics of photographer ARE all they know. As a result they simply don't feel confident to start commenting upon either their equals or their betters.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Ok boys and girls, let's go out there and critique some pictures!!!!

 

[bentcountershaft]

When you take your car into the garage, do you just say, 'Fix it'?
When you go to the doctor, do you just say, 'Make me better?'

If you do either of these, the end result is not optimal.

No, although they might be able to diagnose some issues without you, you tell them what you think is wrong.
You take some responsibility.

Same here.
If your pictures don't attract attention, you need to engage people to interact.

And you do that by meeting them part way, by telling them where you think the picture is weak or why you think that certain things don't work.

In short, you work with them, rather than doing nothing and just sitting back and blaming the lack of response on them.

There's a flip side to that. I don't know about you but I don't take my car to the mechanic if I don't think there is anything wrong with it. There are times when I post a shot that I consider finished. I'm happy with it and have no interest in doing it again or trying to "fix" anything. I generally don't ask for anything specific in responses when I post these because I'm more interested in how others react to the image and I don't want to lead them one way or the other. Perhaps you're right and I should engage the viewer directly, at least in some way, to explain what I'm looking for. But then another part of me thinks that if the shot doesn't compel them enough to say something on their own then the shot didn't do the job I wanted it to.

 

[Dikkie]

I would like to see people shooting and posting out of their comfort zone, forsaking some of the comfort of being good at something to try to expand their artistic vision. That provides an example for the less experienced that art is always meant to progress and it also gives people a chance at some c/c that goes beyond the very basic stuff, a chance to look at the artistic vision and make comments about them, rather than being stuck in the critically low-rent areas of sharpnes, focus, dof and wb.

That's right.

I don't like to see professional photo's to be commented. Why? Everything is already correct lit, balanced, composed, and the photographer knows it. These pics are mostly boring.
If these photographers want to stay in their comfort zone, that's fine, no problem, but they have to make their photos more attractive, stunning. They have to add some other value or parameter in it to make it dynamic.
Emotion, or an x-factor.

This way, you'll get more feedback. Your photo won't be the perfect boring photo like it should be as the rules tell you to shoot.

Also, when there's something wrong in a photo, it's mostly an eye catching effect. Try to add something like this, but without destroying your photo.

 

[The_Traveler]

My feeling concerning C&C is if the OP has a particular issue they want help with, perhaps composition, WB, noise, etc., then they should mention this in their post. Equally, when viewing other people's work, if some issues are apparent that the OP has either missed or not mentioned, then these should be brough to the OP's attention so that they can at least be aware of these points in future.

Otherwise, I think posting in one of the galleries and including some exif data should suffice. After all you wouldn't expect to walk into a gallery made of bricks and mortar and be told what the ehibits are about or what the artist was trying to achieve. You have to think about that for yourself normally.

Catalogs, artists' statement?

This isn't exactly a gallery.
People here post pictures of all levels of skill and their desired input ranges from basic stuff to a wish for a more intensive rigorous look.
If people don't get what they want as responses, they need to know how to ask.

People may think they shouldn't have to ask, but clearly their opinion on how things should be isn't making the situation change.

I have the feeling that some people here would starve to death in a restaurant because the server doesn't take their order.
Perhaps their 'starvation' is making some point but they're still the ones without food.

 

[The_Traveler]

Forums inevitably descend to the level of the lowest common denominator of their participants.

A. D. Coleman

It may not be 'inevitable' but without work it sure is likely.

 

[rexbobcat]

Ok boys and girls, let's go out there and critique some pictures!!!!

You KNOW it doesn't work like that Bitter. How many times am I going to have to remind you?

 

[slackercruster]

I guess its a problem that once you're at a certain level people assume that what you show them is what you fully intended.

I think the best learning tool is to look at a picture and try to figure out why you like or - or don't.
That's what builds up one's personal understanding of composition and art in a way that is more more integrated with your 'responses' than just reading about Rules.

The Rules or Guidelines are attempts to codify simply how the largest proportion of people respond to certain arrangements of the elements in a picture.

It's the simply part that takes a lot of nuance out.

Well Lew...

I've pretty much left or been kicked out of all the online photo forums. There is just too much prejudice and censorship. The photo hosting sites censor my stuff, so even if I wanted to send pix in I am blocked. I opened up a Flickr and they banned me after 9 days. I had spent 50 hours setting it up with tons of pix. i joined 100+ groups and set up 5 of my own groups. All my work was lost at Flickr. Who wants to waste time like that?

While this forum is a very nice one for the average tog. It is just like the rest of the forums when it comes to blocking serious discussion. That is why I don't participate here any longer. I don't like my photography blocked Lew.

Tumblr and Devaintart are the only places that allow free discussion. But Deviantart sucks for ease of use with posting pix, so I don't post there. And Tumblr is easy to post pix to, but has nil discussion. So no matter how you slice it, currently my venues are poor for what I like to do with my online photography.

Here is some of my latest work and some old work Lew:

slackercruster

Lew, just for you I added a pix on Tumblr to show you how a mistake can turn out good. One of my mistakes went from my trash can directly to the Los Angels County Museum of Art!

I'd like to suggest you all start a 'Best of 2012' thread for your own pix. Showcase what you did right and if you like, what you did wrong during the year. With me I try to trash my bad stuff Lew. I am drowning in pix and don't need a lot of crap hanging round to clutter up my world.

I owe this forum lots of thanks though. It was one of 2 forums that helped me get started with digital in Feb of 2012. I was an old film tog trying to make a comeback and knew next to nothing about digital. While I still need to learn tons of stuff, I have made a lot of improvement in the last 9 months. So a big thanks to all those that have helped me learn the ropes.

Here is something else I owed you guys. The dye stability teats I talked about when I was here.

Slackercruster-Tests

Good luck to you all and hope you have a pleasant and relaxing holiday season

slackercruster

 

[manaheim]

A. D. Coleman

It may not be 'inevitable' but without work it sure is likely.

Any social group, really.

 

[pgriz]

The levels of critique (tongue in cheek, of course):

1. Whazzat?
2. Like it/don’t like it.
3. Too much noise/missed sharpness/too dark/too light.
4. The WB is off.
5. You’re not using the rule of thirds.
6. Missing a point of interest/the foreground or background intrudes.
7. The dark is not balanced by the light/ the flow seems off/the processing distracts.
8. Does not emotionally engage/image is annoying/I don’t get it.
9. Almost as good as what I imagine I would take under the circumstances...(if I had the camera/lens/grip/filter/flash...)
10. Wow. I wish I took that.

There are many things that influence the dynamics of critique:
1. the perceived ability of the critic relative to the creator of the image.
2. The artistic sensibility of the critic relative to the creator.
3. The apparent motivation of the poster of the image.

When a newbie posts an image, almost everyone on the forum has more experience than the poster, so all kinds of helpful (and not-so-helpful) comments get given, partly because no-one is going to be proven wrong. When an intermediate-level photographer posts images, it’s trickier, as the critics know that the poster has some skills and ability, and the easy technical critiques are probably not appropriate, so the discussion moves to composition/effect, and there are fewer comments because I suspect fewer feel “safe” in stating an opinion. When an advanced photographer posts, we KNOW that they have the technical stuff figured out, so whatever effect we see MUST be part of the artist’s vision, so the critiques become more “attaboys” than critiques.

And yet, this type of critiquing misses the mark. IF we make the assumption that the purpose of an image is to evoke an emotional response, THEN anyone can react and indicate whether or not in their case, the goal was achieved. I don’t have to be a master chef or a violin virtuoso to be able to appreciate a delicious meal, or a stirring rendition by Paganini. Of course, it can be argued that an image may be crafted so finely that only the top 1% of photographic cognoscenti will “get it”, but in my mind, it will miss the mark as it will not touch the majority of viewers. There is the opposite position of an image that panders to the easy sentimentality (think kittens, beautiful people, pictures that have “cute” all over them), but again I think these miss the mark because they tend to be superficial. In between, there is a medium, when the image affects enough people deeply enough to make it a worthy image.

The motivation of the poster is also something to consider. Is the poster showing us the result of a high skill level, or are they looking for ways to improve what is already a well-crafted image? I thoroughly enjoy seeing some of the higher-level work by others – it is inspiring and instructive to me, which is partly the reason I come to (this and other) forums. On the aesthetic side, it opens up my eyes to seeing in a different way (always a good thing), and on the technical side, I get inspired to try and replicate the effect or vision, and in doing so, learn new skills. If the poster of such an image also discusses some of the challenges they faced, and overcame, then this becomes a seriously interesting image as it engages me in both the esthetic and technical sense.

However, there is a dark side to this, and that is that once an artist reaches a level where they are in the top 0.1% of the field, it is hard to give any kind of meaningful critique. If that artist wants to keep moving and not become stagnant, they have to find new areas/groups where they are now among peers. I know of several such photographers who are or were members of our photo club – they regularly win all the club competitions, and then they either withdraw/pull back, or they leave the club to associate with “higher-level” beings. The former still play a role as mentors, the latter we hear of occasionally when they send us notices of their exhibits.

In relation to Lew’s original post, perhaps the gurus here will consider taking the time to detail their thinking process and preparation when creating an image. It is always educational to walk in someone else’s shoes (and that goes beyond photography). How about some of the “out-takes”which didn’t make it to the gallery wall – why did they not succeed? What was the thinking behind why image A was competition-worthy, and image B was not? I raise this suggestion because in our photo club, when we opened up the workshops to discuss the “genesis” of a shot, it really opened up my (and I’m sure many others) eyes at how much prep work goes into creating a really good shot.