motcon wrongly closes my critique thread.

Discussion in 'Feedback and Suggestions' started by newrmdmike, Jun 24, 2007.

  1. motcon

    motcon TPF Noob!

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    see, that's the problem. how does one critique the entirety of an image if one or two areas aren't complete? each and every component of a photograph make up the whole. a proper critique can't be made unless we understand the relationship of each piece of a photograph. that said, a work in progress can't be critiqued properly. it's not possible. it's asking the viewer to comment on a half before knowing the whole and how the existing half will impact the whole.

    o man, i hate puns ;)

    it was never stated that any form of reproduction is not permitted. that's not in the guidelines, it's not in any text that i've written. anywhere. if all you have is a digital reproduction, then post it as final and let the chips fall where they may. if you then later say, 'well, i intended to fix that area when i do the final version', is that fair to the people doing critique? not in the least. post what you have in any form as your final. let's have fun doing critique.


    edit: ya know, if one were to carefully read this thread, one would realize that you and i violently agree on these issues. we're just locked in a struggle of semantics.


     
  2. Jeff Canes

    Jeff Canes No longer a newbie, moving up!

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    IMHO the new Critique Forum is not going work just too many rules, keep it simple
     
  3. terri

    terri Administrator Staff Member Supporting Member

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    Jeff, I appreciate the confusion that is being caused with this whole new approach.

    Honestly, I thought by the end that the committee did an excellent job of keeping the rules/guidelines pretty straightforward, and minimal in number.

    First, they had to outline and agree on what was wrong with the old critique forum and how to address these issues. It seemed that there was a lot of pretty good information to be had in there - we have so many members who know how to offer up critique - but a huge problem was wading through the off-topic posts just to get to the heart of it.

    So one of the first decisions was that the critical analysis forum would be much more formal in approach. No one is trying to come off particularly heavy-handed; it's just a giant undertaking and moderation has to be consistent, above everything else.

    So with consistency in mind, the templates came into being. That way one moderator can't say something to a member that another moderator wouldn't. Everyone needs to hear the same thing, or it will be chaotic.

    In a nutshell, the aim is to keep out idle (non-substantive) comments, stick to topic, and in that way anyone reading these threads knows they won't have to wade through a lot of off topic chatter just to get to that one informative post where something can be learned.

    Finished work offered up for in-depth critique (not just PS edits) in one forum....works in progress, with technical questions or problems, in the other. Image size, number of images, etc., etc. Not too big a change in the guidelines here.

    I hope that clarifies the objective somewhat, and lessens the surprise of seeing the templates. They're really helpful because they are quick, and as you know none of the moderators can be here 24/7. So speed and consistency were also part of the reasoning.

    Digital Matt and Motcon are the section moderators for the critique forums, btw. If you have any questions, or need clarification before you post something, by all means shoot them a PM.

    They obviously want this to work, to be a real benefit to TPF. But they need your buy-in and support, and that means communication! :)
     
  4. Chase

    Chase I am now benign! Staff Member Supporting Member

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    I think another point needs to be addressed here as well, and that is simply that the concept behind the critique areas is fairly specific. The idea is to give detailed feedback and critique on an image. This is not an area where "Great shot!" is the goal.

    While I don't want to alienate people from the critique area, I also want to point out that the Gallery forums on the site also provide feedback and critique but on a much less formal level. If you want to get general opinions about your work and just want to enjoy sharing it, the galleries are the place to go, but if you want much more detailed feedback and analysis, the critique forums are the place.

    This doesn't really address much of what was spoken about earlier, but it is a point that I wanted to make. As to what was said earlier, its impossible for us to cover every situation and have a response that everyone will be happy with. In the end, we're doing our best to do what we believe provides the most value, otherwise it may as well be just another gallery.

    Thanks for your understanding and willingness to help us get this new version of the critique forum and bear with us while we go through some growing pains and possible bouts of confusion. :D
     
  5. The_Traveler

    The_Traveler Completely Counter-dependent Supporting Member

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    BTW, I think that 'formal' critique is perhaps a misnomer. What I envision in this section is not necessary formally structured critique but more actual thought about the images. Why the viewer thinks it works or not, whether the balance, color, tone, treatment, composition all are appropriate and well-done.

    The emphasis on detailed repair, how to do it and what the 'repaired' product would look like is not what I would want from a critique.

    OTOH, I find the graphic a little offensive. I wouldn't mind a standard message but the graphic seems over the top. (I don't mind a speeding ticket nearly as much if the policeman is pleasant.)
     
  6. EBphotography

    EBphotography TPF Junkie!

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    I do understand that a lot of work goes into finding the best solution that is a good balance for everyone, but for me this really doesn't seem like the choice.

    It seems to me that when fixing this, a previous problem was ignored. Ask any moderator that routinely moved threads in and out of critique, and they will probably tell you that if people simply followed directions and read the FAQ's and guidelines, we wouldn't have these issues. That being said, I don't understand how a more complicated setup is going to solve this problem. Yes, maybe these new rules do provide a more rigid location to drop your thread, but what good is that if nobody is reading them?

    The "less-personal" approach to keeping things in line will not last either. I can only imagine the flood of PM's that will be sent every day saying that their thread was wrongly closed, etc. I was told that this was meant to make things more efficient for moderating and with less "engagement with users." Reading that now it sounds silly really. This forum has always been about the family atmosphere and friendliness for me. Telling me I have until June 28th to modify my post because I simply told someone I think they should try black and white, that doesn't cut it for me. Sorry.

    To be honest, I honestly would've liked to see the critique forum deleted. Thats not to say that I don't appreciate all the work that's been done to fix it, please don't take it that way. I think that the galleries should be the place where images are posted, it says right in the description "general critique." Take your critique, learn from it. So what if there are a few "Nice shot!" comments in there, this isn't a restaurant it's an online community with 10,000 members, take what you get. If you want to ask a specific question, go ahead and ask it right in your post, you shouldn't have to pop on down to a different section to get your question answered. Plenty of people here are capable and willing to help with a question regardless of where it's posted.

    I really am going to give it a chance, I promise. But I do see some aspects of this to be straying away from what's made this place such a great, welcoming environment.

    Eric.
     
  7. motcon

    motcon TPF Noob!

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    i read your entire post, but the above is the most relevant.

    every single forum on tpf is welcoming. which forum feels like 'home' to one person may not to another. there is a forum to accommodate every type of poster/photographer.

    - snapshot forum
    - beginner forum
    - beyond forum
    - all of the general forums
    - critique forum

    as you can see, there is a logical progression in the forums. from everyday snaps to serious, 'ok, this is the best that i have. critique me to death' (and everything in between).

    if one doesn't feel comfortable with the guidelines of the critique forum, then one needn't post in it/them. it is, however; very welcoming to those who desire serious critique. each and every forum is welcoming, but each has a different standard/set of guidelines. i'm not comfortable posting in any of the photoshop related forums, so i stay away rather than contest them. i go where i feel welcome. go where you feel welcome.

    please do give it a chance. it's something in which a lot of people believe to be a valuable addition. give it a shot. it's been a mere 24 hours since it opened. allow it to evolve and for the guidelines to be understood.

    i realize that it's a new concept here on tpf. that doesn't inherently make it unwelcoming. everyone is welcome. pick a forum of choice and post away.

    give it a chance, my friend....more than the 24 hours of its current life. i believe that you'll find it to be a very solid base of knowledge and learning opportunities.
     

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