My photo critiqued by Photo-Zap

[ottor]

Nice that your photo was selected. It is an unconventional photo--I "get" the three riders all lined up symetrically, the dust cloud behind them, the other racers behind, the two spectators, the silos, the fence, and the lovely distant mountains. The mountains with snow and the silos are very "Idaho". A motocross track in Southern California, for example, would have a vastly different background. It's sort of an offbeat shot. Looked at at a really higher-level of criticism, what you are showing us is a sort of "sports tableau" picture; this is less about the motorcycles than about the entire scene and the contextual clues the scene has for those who look deeply.

Let's put it this way--if you were not who you are, and this shot was framed large and in a gallery, critics would say things like, "See the two people standing far in the back? They represent us, the non-riders, those who stand around and mereley observe things; and the three riders all aligned represent,in a symbolic manner, the similarity, the sameness, that characterizes the modern rat-race, the mechanized age in which we live in. The dusty cloud behind the front-runners is an allegorical reference to the haze and fog through which the following people, the masses so to speak, will proceed to work their own way through, with their vision obscured by those in the lead, the vast pack struggling to find its way behind the leading-edge select few; in a larger sense, the dust cloud refers to the modern cities in which so many people live in crowded conditions,packed into cities with bad air. The mountains, covered in snow, represent the purity of nature,and the harshness of high-altitude climates, while the grain silos represent mankind's reliance on lower-elevation grasslands for food growing,and show modern man's need to store food for long-term survival using high-technology silos, and the fence in between the mountains and the racers symbolizes the way the modern world has been increasingly separated from the natural world; the racers are closed-off from the symbolic mountains and pure natural world shown in the distance, enclosed in close confinement, where only a few lead, and the rest await their turn at the back of the line,desperate for their chance to maybe, just maybe, to break into the leader's group. But alas, we know that for most, such will not come to pass.

Yeah, that's what people would see if this picture were in a gallery with similar other stuff. Look at Cindy Sherman's tableau-style stuff from the 1980's and then read some of the critical reviews of individual pictures. As I see it, your motocross picture isn't really a "sports" or "action" photo at all--it is something a bit more than that.

Derrel ....

I may have lucked out and captured a cool photograph, but ... your' review is pure art !! :hail::hail::hail:

 

[Derrel]

Your motocross photo really *is not* quite a sports shot...it's an unusual,offbeat photo of an event. Like one of the PopPhoto critics said, it doesn't have a feeling of "energy"--to which I have to say "duh..."

It's not about action really, as much as a split-second in time, and the location, the background is an important element in the photo. You know, one of the most interesting differences between Western cultures and Eastern cultures is the way they,as a whole, tend to "read" photographs and paintings. In the western tradition, we "read" a photo by immediately zeroing in on the foreground elements. In the eastern tradition, there is a hugely greater emphasis placed upon the background of the photo or painting, and the overalll scene.

A scientific study I read some years ago commented upon this very startling discovery. I think it is no surprise that optical designers from Nikon developed the 105mm and 135mm defocus control lenses with adjustable bokeh, and also worked to develop lenses that had unusual bokeh characteristics, for well over three decades, because to Japanese viewers, the BACKGROUND IS PART and parcel of the photograph. And yet, in American culture, the idea of bokeh was introduced only in the late 1990's,and it is STILL in its infancy.

I'm not trying to diss on their critique; all I am pointing out is that your photo is not an "action photo". Your photo has a huge amount of background information going on; the foreground is played AGAINST the backdrop; what American viewers wanted to see were the wheels; we have an American critic citing the photo as lacking in a feeling of "action", in the sense that he wants to "see" the action, see mud flying, be slapped across the face with a really simple,obvious Sports Illustrated action photo.

Your photo really is not about that, though, is it? You took over 400 pictures, and yet you selected that one. You know, ever since I found out about the East-West photo viewing dichotomy, I have started to focus more on looking at the overall scene, and not just zeroing in on the foreground object, and proclaiming a photo a success based upon how well the foreground elements are shown to me. Honestly, your photo is about Idaho motocross; what would it have looked like with a bunch of banners advertising Yamaha and Suzuki and oil filters and Snap-On tools in the background on a track in urban New York state???

I guess I am trying to point out that photo criticism depends largely upon the mental frame and education and background of the person doing the C&C, and how we evaluate "sports and action" photos, and yet how somebody who is in the photo biz can actually fail to see artistic elements because he's looking for mud flying off a bike's rear tire...

 

[IgsEMT]

ottor
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Quote: Originally Posted by Derrel
Nice that your photo was selected. It is an unconventional photo--I "get" the three riders all lined up symetrically, the dust cloud behind them, the other racers behind, the two spectators, the silos, the fence, and the lovely distant mountains. The mountains with snow and the silos are very "Idaho". A motocross track in Southern California, for example, would have a vastly different background. It's sort of an offbeat shot. Looked at at a really higher-level of criticism, what you are showing us is a sort of "sports tableau" picture; this is less about the motorcycles than about the entire scene and the contextual clues the scene has for those who look deeply.

Let's put it this way--if you were not who you are, and this shot was framed large and in a gallery, critics would say things like, "See the two people standing far in the back? They represent us, the non-riders, those who stand around and mereley observe things; and the three riders all aligned represent,in a symbolic manner, the similarity, the sameness, that characterizes the modern rat-race, the mechanized age in which we live in. The dusty cloud behind the front-runners is an allegorical reference to the haze and fog through which the following people, the masses so to speak, will proceed to work their own way through, with their vision obscured by those in the lead, the vast pack struggling to find its way behind the leading-edge select few; in a larger sense, the dust cloud refers to the modern cities in which so many people live in crowded conditions,packed into cities with bad air. The mountains, covered in snow, represent the purity of nature,and the harshness of high-altitude climates, while the grain silos represent mankind's reliance on lower-elevation grasslands for food growing,and show modern man's need to store food for long-term survival using high-technology silos, and the fence in between the mountains and the racers symbolizes the way the modern world has been increasingly separated from the natural world; the racers are closed-off from the symbolic mountains and pure natural world shown in the distance, enclosed in close confinement, where only a few lead, and the rest await their turn at the back of the line,desperate for their chance to maybe, just maybe, to break into the leader's group. But alas, we know that for most, such will not come to pass.

Yeah, that's what people would see if this picture were in a gallery with similar other stuff. Look at Cindy Sherman's tableau-style stuff from the 1980's and then read some of the critical reviews of individual pictures. As I see it, your motocross picture isn't really a "sports" or "action" photo at all--it is something a bit more than that.


Derrel ....

I may have lucked out and captured a cool photograph, but ... your' review is pure art !! :hail::hail::hail:
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There's nothing more exciting than to be shot at................. and missed!


I'm a better landscape photographer than Ansel.... then I wake up...

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Today, 10:22 PM #17 Derrel
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Your motocross photo really *is not* quite a sports shot...it's an unusual,offbeat photo of an event. Like one of the PopPhoto critics said, it doesn't have a feeling of "energy"--to which I have to say "duh..."

It's not about action really, as much as a split-second in time, and the location, the background is an important element in the photo. You know, one of the most interesting differences between Western cultures and Eastern cultures is the way they,as a whole, tend to "read" photographs and paintings. In the western tradition, we "read" a photo by immediately zeroing in on the foreground elements. In the eastern tradition, there is a hugely greater emphasis placed upon the background of the photo or painting, and the overalll scene.

A scientific study I read some years ago commented upon this very startling discovery. I think it is no surprise that optical designers from Nikon developed the 105mm and 135mm defocus control lenses with adjustable bokeh, and also worked to develop lenses that had unusual bokeh characteristics, for well over three decades, because to Japanese viewers, the BACKGROUND IS PART and parcel of the photograph. And yet, in American culture, the idea of bokeh was introduced only in the late 1990's,and it is STILL in its infancy.

I'm not trying to diss on their critique; all I am pointing out is that your photo is not an "action photo". Your photo has a huge amount of background information going on; the foreground is played AGAINST the backdrop; what American viewers wanted to see were the wheels; we have an American critic citing the photo as lacking in a feeling of "action", in the sense that he wants to "see" the action, see mud flying, be slapped across the face with a really simple,obvious Sports Illustrated action photo.

Your photo really is not about that, though, is it? You took over 400 pictures, and yet you selected that one. You know, ever since I found out about the East-West photo viewing dichotomy, I have started to focus more on looking at the overall scene, and not just zeroing in on the foreground object, and proclaiming a photo a success based upon how well the foreground elements are shown to me. Honestly, your photo is about Idaho motocross; what would it have looked like with a bunch of banners advertising Yamaha and Suzuki and oil filters and Snap-On tools in the background on a track in urban New York state???

I guess I am trying to point out that photo criticism depends largely upon the mental frame and education and background of the person doing the C&C, and how we evaluate "sports and action" photos, and yet how somebody who is in the photo biz can actually fail to see artistic elements because he's looking for mud flying off a bike's rear tire...

Stick a fork in me, I'm done. B/c right about now, everything that I learned about this industry/art has been turned upside down and inside out

 

[mommy22]

That is a cool picture. I would agree with the editors that it needs some kind of motion, but I only thought that after I realized they were actually riding the bokes. I thought initially they were all lined up getting ready to start the race.