Ok, so don't yell at me... LOL

[Dwig]

...
I am just getting started though so it is so tempting to cut your prices to do it when you KNOW they aren't going to pay anyone that. ..

It is tempting, but its a foolish thing to do. Hold your prices and don't apologize for them.

If you need to be the low price to get business going, do so by offering less in quantity but not in quality. Perhaps offer a "basic" package where you shoot the wedding and a few posed shots afterwards, but no reception and no formals portraits. Keep the promised picture count low and make it a quick easy shoot. If you approach this right, and with excellent salesmanship, you have the opportunity to upsell after you've collected the deposit for the basic shoot

I knew a photographer some 35 years ago that did well with a similar approach. He offered a $25 shoot (~$200 in todays money) that included 12 5x5" prints in a simple album (he often delivered 14-18 prints). He barely covered cost with that fee, but it appealed to the "poor" college students that were paying their own way. His average wedding actually netted him over $100 because he was an excellent salesman and would pitch the sale of extra albums and prints to the parents.

 

[ReefRunner]

Dwig hit the nail on thr head. Quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten.

 

[Lyncca]

So, my husband talked to one of our other friends and asked if the groom said anything to him about the pics. Our friend said that yea, that he started laughing at the price I gave and said, "whatever!" so I was right that they thought I was trying to take advantage of him.

Keith (my hubby) wants to try to make it all better with them and said, well maybe you can offer them a free couple shoot after or something. I said, "uh I don't think so! I already offered a free engagement or free bridal and she turned that down and then laughed at paying $800 for a fully edited disk of photos. *I* don't have to make anything up to anyone!"

They aren't not my friends or anything, but I am certainly not going to give them more freebies!

 

[bigtwinky]

good on you for sticking to your guns.

 

[RJohnston]

My only question is, where do you live that taxes come to 30% of what you are charging or $200 on a $600 package? Or, did you mean cost, like for processing and finished work?

 

[benhasajeep]

I don't consider myself a pro. But I have maintained insurance and tax identies all these years as I do, some side work from word of mouth or people I have done work for in the past.

The one rule I have for true friends is do it for free (with the absolute understanding that it includes no special treatments or services) or not at all. The saying is true about money and family and friends. I choose to not get into the situation. I have turned down several weddings for friends in the past. As I don't want to get into the pricing / hurt feelings issues. I find its best to just politely say no. What I do for free is basically just School portraits for their kids. Gives me a chance to break up the rust on studio work. And really, I have the time to do a couple of them a year without loosing anything. And now my wife is starting to learn and she likes it. So, good chance for her to practice and learn as well.

Friends and paid work don't mix. It's best just to stay away from it. This is true in just about everything, not just photography.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

Why do packages? Call around Fort Worth and see what wedding photogs are doing. If most of them do packages, why not try something else?

I started with wedding packages too. Got the jobs through a friend of mine who had a wedding boutique. Absolutely hated the jobs and they were not bringing in that much money. So I decided to try something else.

I started spreading the word that I was doing weddings through my editorial clients and that I was doing more of an artistic photo-journalism type work. I started getting calls right away.

And all I charged for in the contract was for my day. Always gave them the entire day for the simple reason that I didn't want to do two weddings in a day anyway. And I charged the same rate as for my editorial work. $500 /day. 25 years ago, it was decent change but the clients thought they were getting a very good deal. Even though I gave them a menu of prints and albums rates, I don't think they were thinking about how much it would end up costing.

The average wedding netted me about $2,000. By the time I stopped the weddings a couple years later, I was charging $1,000 for the day and the average wedding netted about $3-4,000. Most of my weddings I sold 3 albums - one to the B&G and one each to the parents. The cost was easier to swallow because it was split between the different parties instead of the brides parents paying for everything. My albums were also very different. No album of 12 8x10 and a box of candids for me.

What I am trying to say is: be as creative with what you offer as you are with your photos. It can pay very well and be a lot easier to shoot if it fits your personality better.

 

[Lyncca]

My only question is, where do you live that taxes come to 30% of what you are charging or $200 on a $600 package? Or, did you mean cost, like for processing and finished work?

I'm pretty certain (could be wrong) that as a sole proprietor, that any money I make is the same as my normal income, and with the tax bracket I am in, approximately 33% of my income goes to taxes. Most of my stuff last year was free, so it didn't make much difference, but if I start booking weddings, it will add up.

I don't consider myself a pro. But I have maintained insurance and tax identies all these years as I do, some side work from word of mouth or people I have done work for in the past.

The one rule I have for true friends is do it for free (with the absolute understanding that it includes no special treatments or services) or not at all. The saying is true about money and family and friends. I choose to not get into the situation. I have turned down several weddings for friends in the past. As I don't want to get into the pricing / hurt feelings issues. I find its best to just politely say no. What I do for free is basically just School portraits for their kids. Gives me a chance to break up the rust on studio work. And really, I have the time to do a couple of them a year without loosing anything. And now my wife is starting to learn and she likes it. So, good chance for her to practice and learn as well.

Friends and paid work don't mix. It's best just to stay away from it. This is true in just about everything, not just photography.

Agreed. I don't really like doing work for friends either. Most of my friends I shoot their kids for free, cause its enjoyable, but a wedding is different. She really wanted me to do it though, so I gave her a bottom-line rate. Lesson learned

Why do packages? Call around Fort Worth and see what wedding photogs are doing. If most of them do packages, why not try something else?

I started with wedding packages too. Got the jobs through a friend of mine who had a wedding boutique. Absolutely hated the jobs and they were not bringing in that much money. So I decided to try something else.

I started spreading the word that I was doing weddings through my editorial clients and that I was doing more of an artistic photo-journalism type work. I started getting calls right away.

And all I charged for in the contract was for my day. Always gave them the entire day for the simple reason that I didn't want to do two weddings in a day anyway. And I charged the same rate as for my editorial work. $500 /day. 25 years ago, it was decent change but the clients thought they were getting a very good deal. Even though I gave them a menu of prints and albums rates, I don't think they were thinking about how much it would end up costing.

The average wedding netted me about $2,000. By the time I stopped the weddings a couple years later, I was charging $1,000 for the day and the average wedding netted about $3-4,000. Most of my weddings I sold 3 albums - one to the B&G and one each to the parents. The cost was easier to swallow because it was split between the different parties instead of the brides parents paying for everything. My albums were also very different. No album of 12 8x10 and a box of candids for me.

What I am trying to say is: be as creative with what you offer as you are with your photos. It can pay very well and be a lot easier to shoot if it fits your personality better.

I don't necessarily do "packages" based on prints. My bottom package is for me to show up and shoot your wedding, edit all the photos and deliver a CD. From there, I add on additional Fine Art items and flush mount albums. I add things that Joe Blow can't get without a membership to a professional lab. If they want them, great. If not, that's ok too. They can print the files from the disk I give them at the lab of their choice.

I'm sure my prices and offerings will change as I figure out what works for me. The whole point of this was that it seems when you are a friend with someone, they expect you to work for free, where they wouldn't expect that of anyone else.

 

[Soocom1]

In 2005 I tried opening a business doing photography for what I thought was a sure thing-niche market:
Those who couldn’t afford a photographer up in the $1000 range or above.
In New Mexico, Photographers are a dime a dozen, and charge between $500-$20,000 a gig. (Yes I have seen the invoices).
The market doesn’t allow for low-end photography as a profession. I figured that I was not out to be a full timer, but I wanted to make it taking pictures of weddings, livestock, events, etc; at a great discount. After all (I said to myself) those families who are having an entire wedding for under $900 could use a photographer who won’t charge them an arm and a leg they don’t have. Most of their friends and family are the point and shoot types anyway and I figured here is a way for me to make money, build a reputation, and give a low cost alternative to the high end guys while providing Pro-end results.
But in my pursuit to be a nice and fair good guy, I discovered one of the hardest truths of being in business.
DON’T GO CHEAP!
The problem I had was that because I targeted those who could not afford a full priced photographer, when the economy went south, guess who got the hardest hit first?
I discovered that when gas prices and cost of living went up, they (my targeted customers) could not afford to even hire me.
Remember, you have to look not only at the cost of paying yourself, (time your worth) but also material, transportation, and yes even entertainment. Replacement costs, ancillary costs, et al. Plus, that all to important aspect: The dreaded, hated and despised EVIL PROFIT!
A business cannot stay in business without a profit.
Because my reputation had already been started, and the market here (Alb. NM) is as full of photographers as it is, there was no way for me to make it. So after 3 years of utter disappointment, and a total of only $310 in actual sales, I contacted the state and county, and closed the tax ID number.
Lesson learned.

 

[RJohnston]

...
I am just getting started though so it is so tempting to cut your prices to do it when you KNOW they aren't going to pay anyone that. ..

It is tempting, but its a foolish thing to do. Hold your prices and don't apologize for them.

If you need to be the low price to get business going, do so by offering less in quantity but not in quality. Perhaps offer a "basic" package where you shoot the wedding and a few posed shots afterwards, but no reception and no formals portraits. Keep the promised picture count low and make it a quick easy shoot. If you approach this right, and with excellent salesmanship, you have the opportunity to upsell after you've collected the deposit for the basic shoot

I knew a photographer some 35 years ago that did well with a similar approach. He offered a $25 shoot (~$200 in todays money) that included 12 5x5" prints in a simple album (he often delivered 14-18 prints). He barely covered cost with that fee, but it appealed to the "poor" college students that were paying their own way. His average wedding actually netted him over $100 because he was an excellent salesman and would pitch the sale of extra albums and prints to the parents.

THAT is low. 50 years ago had a package of 12 - 8x10 in a white album for $200 and an additional charge for each page additional. Thought that was very low....

I'd shoot 300 shots with about 90% keepers and never had a bride choose only 12 for the album. They had a difficult time keeping it to less than 36 and bought other sizes separately. Usually wound up with an album for both parents a dupe theirs.

For those who are new or fairly new Wedding Photographers, there is a link with about 50 books by Bill Hurter and others.
You learn from ONE book, what the author took a lifetime to learn.

Books about Wedding Photography

 

[c.cloudwalker]

My only question is, where do you live that taxes come to 30% of what you are charging or $200 on a $600 package? Or, did you mean cost, like for processing and finished work?

I'm pretty certain (could be wrong) that as a sole proprietor, that any money I make is the same as my normal income, and with the tax bracket I am in, approximately 33% of my income goes to taxes. Most of my stuff last year was free, so it didn't make much difference, but if I start booking weddings, it will add up.

I don't consider myself a pro. But I have maintained insurance and tax identies all these years as I do, some side work from word of mouth or people I have done work for in the past.

The one rule I have for true friends is do it for free (with the absolute understanding that it includes no special treatments or services) or not at all. The saying is true about money and family and friends. I choose to not get into the situation. I have turned down several weddings for friends in the past. As I don't want to get into the pricing / hurt feelings issues. I find its best to just politely say no. What I do for free is basically just School portraits for their kids. Gives me a chance to break up the rust on studio work. And really, I have the time to do a couple of them a year without loosing anything. And now my wife is starting to learn and she likes it. So, good chance for her to practice and learn as well.

Friends and paid work don't mix. It's best just to stay away from it. This is true in just about everything, not just photography.

Agreed. I don't really like doing work for friends either. Most of my friends I shoot their kids for free, cause its enjoyable, but a wedding is different. She really wanted me to do it though, so I gave her a bottom-line rate. Lesson learned

Why do packages? Call around Fort Worth and see what wedding photogs are doing. If most of them do packages, why not try something else?

I started with wedding packages too. Got the jobs through a friend of mine who had a wedding boutique. Absolutely hated the jobs and they were not bringing in that much money. So I decided to try something else.

I started spreading the word that I was doing weddings through my editorial clients and that I was doing more of an artistic photo-journalism type work. I started getting calls right away.

And all I charged for in the contract was for my day. Always gave them the entire day for the simple reason that I didn't want to do two weddings in a day anyway. And I charged the same rate as for my editorial work. $500 /day. 25 years ago, it was decent change but the clients thought they were getting a very good deal. Even though I gave them a menu of prints and albums rates, I don't think they were thinking about how much it would end up costing.

The average wedding netted me about $2,000. By the time I stopped the weddings a couple years later, I was charging $1,000 for the day and the average wedding netted about $3-4,000. Most of my weddings I sold 3 albums - one to the B&G and one each to the parents. The cost was easier to swallow because it was split between the different parties instead of the brides parents paying for everything. My albums were also very different. No album of 12 8x10 and a box of candids for me.

What I am trying to say is: be as creative with what you offer as you are with your photos. It can pay very well and be a lot easier to shoot if it fits your personality better.

I don't necessarily do "packages" based on prints. My bottom package is for me to show up and shoot your wedding, edit all the photos and deliver a CD. From there, I add on additional Fine Art items and flush mount albums. I add things that Joe Blow can't get without a membership to a professional lab. If they want them, great. If not, that's ok too. They can print the files from the disk I give them at the lab of their choice.

I'm sure my prices and offerings will change as I figure out what works for me. The whole point of this was that it seems when you are a friend with someone, they expect you to work for free, where they wouldn't expect that of anyone else.

Ho, sorry. When I see the word package I automatically think of prints being included.

But my response was not necessarily for you. More of a way of showing to anyone interested in that business that there are more ways than one to approach it. Here, I'll quote myself: "be as creative with what you offer as you are with your photos. It can pay very well and be a lot easier to shoot if it fits your personality better."

I did not address the issue of working with friends because, it seemed to me it had already been addressed by others well enough. Looking again at your original post, I will make a few comments.

"I had already told her in her first email that I would do her bridals or an engagement as a freebie, but that there were so many things with a wedding, that I just couldn't do that for free because of all the work involved, paying for insurance, taxes, etc. I told her I would be working the whole time and not be able to really hang out like everyone else. I wanted her to know that friend or not, I took it very serious."

I don't know how much of this was actually in your email but I would not ever mention taxes, insurance, etc to a client to justify my rates. True, some people don't understand that there is a cost to doing business but that is not your problem. It's theirs.

Your rate is your rate. No one forces them to accept it. They can go somewhere else and you shouldn't get too upset about that. It's the nature of business. There will almost always be someone cheaper than you are. Do you really want to compete with them? Do you really want to be so competitive that you don't make any money? Not me, and you don't either.

I stopped doing weddings because I had developed an another business writing and photographing articles for the European press. I did very well because we have a lot of weird people and weird events in this country
that I had easier access to than the average guy in Europe. But after a few years the European magazines were getting so many other offers from people who just wanted to see their names in print and didn't care about getting paid that I had to stop. The magazines were not willing to pay enough anymore to make it worth my time.

As for the idea of working with friends, all I can say is I try not to do it. I'll admit that I was lucky enough that only one friend ever asked me to do his wedding. It got taken care of by my asking: "Do you want me to be a guest at your wedding and enjoy your special day with you or do you want me to be working? I ask because I can't do both."

If he had said he wanted me to work, I would have presented him with a contract and said something like: "Ok, we are now in a business relationship, here is my contract, do you agree with the terms?"

But the main thing is, do not stress yourself about BS like that. It is not worth it in my book.

 

[spiralcity]

I agree with most of the comments.

I told my own cousin "No thanks".

Family expects free-bee's.

As much as I would like to help my cousin out, I just cant put my time on the line for a couple hundred dollars. Too much work is involved.