Photography---is an opinionisitic art form

[fwellers]

Well I guess, if you're talking about a professional, who is under the gun to take a certain amount of good pics in a certain amount of time yea. But I always thought the bottom line and what matters most about your images are the ones you display. I mean does a lesser keeper rate make you a lessor photographer ? I don't know if I would judge someones work ever by saying 'well how many tries did it take you to come up with that ? '
I have a website ( or a photosite ). I think I know where I stand in the food chain as a photographer, it's pretty low right now because I'm only a 2.5 year photographer. At the same time as I'm learning how to expand my vision, I am also learning how to display only the best. It's a big giant learning curve that I will enjoy the rest of my life hopefully. I don't care to be judged or belittled as someone who thinks they are better than they are just because I try and display nice images on the web.
Maybe you didn't mean it quite the way I interpreted it. I am a little sensitive to photographer snobbery that I see a ton of on the internet.

 

[imagemaker46]

Is that the backstroke shot? It was off a turn in an outdoor pool. Thanks.

 

[fwellers]

Is that the backstroke shot? It was off a turn in an outdoor pool. Thanks.

Not at all.

 

[imagemaker46]

@fwellers, it wasn't a shot at anyone really, like you said it was a general statement and more so directed to those that looking at themselves as professionals. I've seen some amazing work on web sites, and not all of them are from professionals, it really doesn't matter who shot them. People like other people to see what they shoot, and that's good. I think everyone should own a camera and learn how to use it. I've had people not show me their holiday pics because they think I will judge them, I can look at happy snaps and see them for what they are without being critical, they are what they are.

 

[Hardrock]

Yes, the image really makes you feel as if you were in the water. Great job!

 

[The_Traveler]

I share your concern, and I no longer post original images on this site, because I almost never get anything useful in return. I was taught that a good critique utilized the PIN principle -- say something Positive, Interesting, and Negative...and the negative should be said in instructive terms.

I agree this is a good rule - if someone is criticizing 5 year olds.
Adults should be able to extract useful information from virtually any well-meant response. In critiques, my responsibility is not to make the poster happy, all warm and comfy, but to say the truth as I see it.

In general terms, having an opinion about an image is relatively unimportant compared to knowing and saying why you have that opinion.

Responding to an image is a great way - the best way - to exercise one's own critical abilities.

Knowing why you have certain feelings about an image allows you to understand your own picture taking better.

I wrote the following to give as a handout in presentations on critiquing images.
_________________________________________________________________

It's not enough to say you like it - an introduction to giving critique


Very few pictures presented for critique in the photo communities on the web are meant simply to convey detail or information, as does a driver’s license photo or a picture of how to assemble some mechanism.

Pictures presented for critique generally are intended to have visual impact but, more than that, to convey a feeling, an impression, an emotion or an intellectual concept.

The photographer uses all the technical and compositional tools at her or his command to achieve that. A critique should explore what the photographer did and how well it was done.

A critique has two benefits; the intended one is to allow the photographer to see how his/her image is seen by others’ eyes - eyes that are unclouded by any emotional attachment to the image. The second benefit is that every critique can be a learning experience for the critic who sharpens his/her own eye by disentangling the many components of a photograph and weighing each of these to understand the photograph’s strengths, weaknesses and ultimate success.

How is this ‘critique’ actually done?

The feeling that the picture is great, good, mediocre or terrible is a visceral, emotional response; we need to go further and be able to describe why we have that response. To understand that visceral response, the critic asks him/herself questions and the responses build the critique. The questions are meant to separate out the various components of a picture into manageable quantities so each of us can understand in some way why we feel as we do about the picture. (Think about the best chocolate chip cookies you’ve ever had and the recipe that made them.) The photographer’s ability and talent and the content do add an unquantifiable component but the critic needs to get as close as possible to picking out the qualities that make up the worth of each picture in his or her own eyes.

Some potential questions:

• What feelings or impressions come from the picture?
• Are these feeling congruent with the content or subject?
• Are there one or more centers of visual interest?
• Is(are) the center(s) of interest - the main subject(s) - well placed within the frame and does the placement relate well to the rest of the content so that the viewer’s eye is drawn to, rather than away?
• Is there excess space that pulls the eye away and drains any tension or drama from the picture?
• Is there enough space so that nothing feels cramped or cut off?
• Are there geometric issues? e.g. are the horizontals and vertical correct, and is that important?
• Is the composition appropriate for the content?
• Is the color or tonality appropriate for the content? Saturation or lack of it? Correct hues, white balance?
• Does the color make the point that the photographer wants?
• Is the sharpness or lack of sharpness appropriate?
• Is everything that should be in focus and sharp, actually so?
• In the reverse, is there so much depth of field, that attention is drawn away from the real object of interest?
• Are there individual small defects - points of motion, dirt on the lens/sensor, out-of-focus spots that hurt the image, unduly bright areas that draw the eye?

More questions may occur to you to add to your concept of each image; your summation should be - in your opinion, why is this picture good/bad/indifferent and could the photographer have done something differently or better to increase the impact of the picture?

Respond to the picture as presented without suggestions for different angles, etc. If the environment is friendly and the photographer is willing to listen, then suggest possible technical or technique changes that, in your opinion, might improve the picture.

Remember that wonderful, successful pictures may have many small defects and still be great. Conversely, a technically perfect picture may be completely uninteresting.

Photography, as all arts are, is clearly a realm where the whole may not be equal to the sum of the parts.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

Knowing why you have certain feelings about an image allows you to understand your own picture taking better.

:thumbup:

When I went back to school to learn painting we were asked to C&C each other's work from the very first week even though none of us knew much about anything. It is a way to make you think about what you are doing yourself. There is a lot to learn from that seemingly stupid exercise.

 

[rehab]

I havent read the thread but for the first few posts, photography is opinion based however the technical aspect of it is not. Don't get that twisted, dont get it tangled. Either its produced right or its not.

 

[Joshonator]

The best way to get a person to improve is to get them to listen to what you are saying. So whenever I leave feedback I leave at least one positive remark about the image, regardless of how bad i think it is. Rather than saying why the image is bad tell them how you think it could be improved. The way that you say it makes a world of difference.

 

[manaheim]

The best way to get a person to improve is to get them to listen to what you are saying. So whenever I leave feedback I leave at least one positive remark about the image, regardless of how bad i think it is. Rather than saying why the image is bad tell them how you think it could be improved. The way that you say it makes a world of difference.

Here's the thing, though... you really can't say how to improve an image unless you're dealing just with the technical aspects of it.

A photograph is a statement of impression made by the artist.... that is the person holding the camera. How you would improve the image would relate to how you would have taken the picture. Once you do that, the picture is yours... not theirs. The statement is yours... not theirs. Or worse... the statement is your retake on whatever the original artist was saying to begin with.

Not to mention the various practical limitations... you weren't there... you don't know what was there... what was in the scene... how the air felt, what sounds were in the air, what the general emotion of the area in question was. You couldn't feel... therefore how could you share that feeling? Really just a different way of saying what I said above, but same end result.

 

[Josh66]

I leave at least one positive remark about the image, regardless of how bad i think it is

If it's bad, it's bad. Candy coating everything, and telling everyone that they're special (you are not special) is one of the problems we're dealing with now. Everyone thinks they're entitled to something... Guess what. You're not. Nobody owes you anything. If you fail, you only have yourself to blame.

If you think it's bad, say so. Try to explain why, but even if you don't, that's better than trying to come up with something 'good' that isn't really there. ...And if you can, offer tips on how to improve.

 

[The_Traveler]

I leave at least one positive remark about the image, regardless of how bad i think it is

If you think it's bad, say so. Try to explain why, but even if you don't, that's better than trying to come up with something 'good' that isn't really there. ...And if you can, offer tips on how to improve.

Here's the thing, though... you really can't say how to improve an image unless you're dealing just with the technical aspects of it.

However skilled or unskilled the photographer is, I treat them as an adult and give them the two things they deserve from me which is respect and honesty. I tell them how I see the picture as it is presented and how I feel about it and why. I don't think that I'm so important, smart or all-knowing that I can make a value judgement about any picture on some absolute scale.

And my liking or disliking anything isn't nearly as important as how the picture is done. I couldn't give less of a crap about 97% of the subject matter I see but I can try to say something sensible about most of it.

I know that being nice, as opposed to being truthful, is a hard habit to break, it's easier to be a nice guy but it is infinitely less valuable to the person hearing you. If they can't trust everything you say, why should they trust anything?

Being truthful doesn't mean being a hard guy and grinding someone down, just treat them with the respect and honesty you'd like to hear yourself. If you are the kind of person who needs chocolate coating, I'm afraid you'd best put me put me on 'ignore'.

 

[skwty]

Ok, as a "new guy", which I have stated more than one time. I feel the same way as the OP here. I have read through the entire thread and there are plenty of good comments and this is a great discussion, no doubt.

I joined to learn about photography. I don't want a degree, or useless piece of paper for that matter, with my name on it. I like to capture life and I want to learn how to do it the best way that I can with the resources I have. When I post a photo for C&C, I freak out. My first one was posted late at night, when I figured I would not get a reply for a while and that was the point. I didn't want to see it ripped to shreds because I thought it was a great shot.

When I got up the next morning and didn't see any emails regarding my post, I was relieved for a second, then thought, "WTF?". I have seen many C&C's get comments how could mine get NONE over night? Well, it had to do with the fact that I didn't have the subscription set up right so I would get the emails SO, when I came to the forum to check things out I was happy I got replies. Bummed by a couple, took notes on some others.

The one thing I didn't like was being told what "should" have been in the photo. I know that "just because a photo looks cool doesn't make it great", but for a split second it made me feel good about taking the shot.

I appreciate C&C and can take it seriously AND with a grain of salt. I just don't want to see it become a waste of time for "new guys" like myself. I like the forum and the attitudes here so far, I would hate to "forget" about it just because nobody is willing to help a guy out. I think, based on this thread, that anyone wants to C&C, these points would help.

Nice topic! Rant complete.

 

[The_Traveler]

Ok, as a "new guy", which I have stated more than one time. I feel the same way as the OP here. I have read through the entire thread and there are plenty of good comments and this is a great discussion, no doubt.

I joined to learn about photography. I don't want a degree, or useless piece of paper for that matter, with my name on it. I like to capture life and I want to learn how to do it the best way that I can with the resources I have. When I post a photo for C&C, I freak out. My first one was posted late at night, when I figured I would not get a reply for a while and that was the point. I didn't want to see it ripped to shreds because I thought it was a great shot.

The one thing I didn't like was being told what "should" have been in the photo. I know that "just because a photo looks cool doesn't make it great", but for a split second it made me feel good about taking the shot.

When I got up the next morning and didn't see any emails regarding my post, I was relieved for a second, then thought, "WTF?". I have seen many C&C's get comments how could mine get NONE over night? Well, it had to do with the fact that I didn't have the subscription set up right so I would get the emails SO, when I came to the forum to check things out I was happy I got replies. Bummed by a couple, took notes on some others.

The one thing I didn't like was being told what "should" have been in the photo. I know that "just because a photo looks cool doesn't make it great", but for a split second it made me feel good about taking the shot.

I appreciate C&C and can take it seriously AND with a grain of salt. I just don't want to see it become a waste of time for "new guys" like myself. I like the forum and the attitudes here so far, I would hate to "forget" about it just because nobody is willing to help a guy out. I think, based on this thread, that anyone wants to C&C, these points would help.

Nice topic! Rant complete.

I agree with you there; a picture is what it is - and the viewer should respond to that.
OTOH, if the viewer thinks that the image doesn't have the obvious impact, a secondary comment might be that it could have used x and y to make it better.

I did take note of this comment you made in one of your posts.

(defining a subject before photo is something I need to work on),

Screw 'work on it', that is photography. If you don't have an idea in advance of what should be big, what should be well lit, what should be in the power position in the frame, don't take the picture. Instead, take a breath and a step back.

All of photo experience goes towards making that decision.

Here are my suggestions about getting good C/C.

1) post your best picture. Don't say this is unedited, don't say I just messed around. Take seriously what you post and people will take you seriously.

2) post one picture at a time so people can concentrate on it. Post more and most of the comments will be on the best because people want to say something nice.

3) Don't say you like it, you love it or all your friends love it. Don't identify with the picture. It doesn't make any difference. Nice people won't say things that will hurt your feelings. Smartasses will just see it as a chance to be superior.

4) Look at the picture hard, pick out a weakness and ask a question about it. That will give people some way to start looking at your picture and will signal your willingness to hear.

5) If you have one critic that is constantly a jerk, put him on ignore and don't respond - at all. Life is to short to listen to fools.

Lew

 

[skwty]

Screw 'work on it', that is photography. If you don't have an idea in advance of what should be big, what should be well lit, what should be in the power position in the frame, don't take the picture. Instead, take a breath and a step back.

All of photo experience goes towards making that decision.

Here are my suggestions about getting good C/C.

1) post your best picture. Don't say this is unedited, don't say I just messed around. Take seriously what you post and people will take you seriously.

2) post one picture at a time so people can concentrate on it. Post more and most of the comments will be on the best because people want to say something nice.

3) Don't say you like it, you love it or all your friends love it. Don't identify with the picture. It doesn't make any difference. Nice people won't say things that will hurt your feelings. Smartasses will just see it as a chance to be superior.

4) Look at the picture hard, pick out a weakness and ask a question about it. That will give people some way to start looking at your picture and will signal your willingness to hear.

5) If you have one critic that is constantly a jerk, put him on ignore and don't respond - at all. Life is to short to listen to fools.

Lew

You know what? You are right and I think new guys like myself, would really appreciate reading your comment here. Thanks for that!