POLICE and Photography

[DerekSalem]

Being one of those wretched flatfoots, I feel obligated to chime in on this thread

I watch photographers of all sorts roaming around my beat, and usually can tell in seconds if they need a second look. Often times the ones that get a second look are the ones pointing their cameras at sensitive areas, ie in windows or at buildings that contain sensitive materials like our nuclear reactor or biological agents. Even then a contact usually only consists of 30 seconds of "how ya doin, what are you up to?" So long as my spidie sense doesn't tingle, I go on my way. Bottom line, people have the right to take pictures. Though we wouldn't be doing our jobs a community caretakers if we didn't at least check given our current social climate.

I did contact a guy once who was taking pictures of girls sun bathing on a grassy lawn. It's a well known spot where on nice days, 100+ girls will be basking in the rays. He voluntarily showed me his camera, and there were over 300 close up pictures of girls naughty bits on there. Needless to say a check of his record indicated he was a sex offender... Go figure... Unfortunately, in cases like this, those people are protected by the same rights you and I are, so there really isn't anything we can even do to someone like that. Although I bluffed and told him I would release a statement to the press with his name in it and what he was up to. It worked...he deleted the photos and left.

I find this whole scenario slightly chilling. Forget the knee-jerk reaction we all have about sex offenders for a moment. Here is a police officer who's not happy with current laws about photographers, so he lies to a citizen and threatens him. THIS is why we get harassed on the streets. It's not ignorance of the laws protecting photographers, it's police officers knowing the law and ignoring it.

My personal opinion? Lock up sex offenders forever. No parole. But here we have a cop who doesn't like the law, so uses his uniform and badge to threaten and intimidate someone doing something legal. I wonder what other thing's he's done on duty to a citizen because he didn't like them, but knew they weren't breaking any laws?

Like I said, chilling.

I'm all for adhering to the law...but morality also comes into play at times. I'm not talking about religious morality, but built-in "everybody knows better" morality.

If you see a guy take hundreds of pictures of children at a park and you ask who he works for and he says they're purely "for his own use"...legally you have nothing to charge him with. Does that mean he shouldn't be punished in some way?

 

[sam_justice]

Once I was takeing wide angle shots of an indoor shopping area. I had a lady approach me after bieng very nice asking who i work for. When I say "Nobody" she flipped out. "How dare you take pictures of me!", "Your not allowed to do this!" When I was explaining she was not even in focus or my subject at all she keeped flipping out. I even showed her the picture I took and it didnt help. I ended it with a stern comment of "Sorry to offend you. Ill delete it if you would like and Im not doing anything illegal... Have a good night." .

Technically, you WERE possibly doing something wrong. If it was an indoor shopping area, it is owned by someone and therefore is private property. Yes, it is a public location, but it is not public property. There is a difference. They can ask you to leave, or refuse you permission to photograph there. She could have complained to the owners. I am sure ( and perhaps the cops posting here can validate this ) that they could charge you with things like disturbing the peace, or possibly even harrassment depending on local laws. Then there is the issue that if a cop shows up and requests you to leave ( and assuming you get all uppity about your photographer rights ) its my guess you wouldn't be too happy with that outcome, because in reality, you would not have that right there. Now if you were standing off property with a really long lens, then they could shove it.

I personally have never had any cops bother me. I actually have been thinking of getting into some editorial shooting and getting a scanner and all that. So I am sure if I did, I would be running into a lot of harrasment by the police. I do tend to make myself obvious as other have stated. I recently went to a local public park in my neighborhood. They have multiple soccer fields and have games on Saturdays. Anyway, it happened to be teen girls playing ( not knowing this before going, I just kinda take whatever happens to be there ). I distinctly remember thinking "I wonder if some parents are wondering if I am some perv or something?" Typically when you have a backpack full of gear, an big gripped SLR, and a huge effin L lens, I think most people assume you aren't some wierdo. I am sure some get pissed regardless, but oh well. If someone came up to me and had a legitimate problem, I would probably ask which kid was theirs and tell them that I would do my best to avoid shots with them in it, but if they were not courteous in response, I would tell them to take a hike.

People forget Police have a huge power called discretion. In a situation like the above I would've probably said to the lady (after talking to the photographer and realising the situation was entirely innocent) "you didn't seem to have a problem with it when you thought he was part of the media, you aren't in focus in the photo therefore you aren't distinguishable and whilst this building may be private property it is open to the general public and this behaviour is perfectly normal, acceptable and a common occurrence in a public place"

 

[vtf]

I was invited to my son's apartment complex and they mentioned a public bike path along the perimeter of these apartments. They all said yeah, go out and shoot, theres some wonderful wild life that lives along the route. So I did just that and when my battery ran low and I was leaving and heading back to my son's apartment 2 panicking office boys approached me and asked' What are you doing!!!!!' I replied."taking pictures". They asked "of what".
I said "squirrels along the bike path"
They said " We've had reports of someone taking pictures of girls through their windows".
I said "Damn, that why's I need more practice, theres people driving by at 60 miles per hour on the hiway can get a good shot of naked girls and I cant find one."
I proceeded to tell them that its a public bike path and maybe they should tell those girls to shut their windows and stop inticing trouble.
They didnt asked to see the shots but I would've shown them with an officer there so a report would've been created.

 

[Taylor510ce]

Does that mean he shouldn't be punished in some way?

Yes it does. You have to respect peoples rights, or else you can't expect yours to be respected. Does that mean you shouldn't check the guy out if you are a cop? Probably not. I mean, if he is a sex offender, he shouldn't be within that distance to a childrens park anyway, and its your job to keep people safe from that kind of stuff. Its called reasonable doubt. So there are reasons to check someone out. However, if someone is looking to practice shooting families and kids, and does not have any of his own, this may be his only way. However, he should be wise enough to ask parents or let them know what he is doing/why. With kids, its also nice to be more courteous. Yeah, there are laws, but when you mess with someones kids, laws get forgotten easily. I don't want to end up on the business end of a gun of some recently laid off frustrated parent who feels threatened by me and have reached the final straw.

 

[Ron Evers]

Derek

If you see a guy take hundreds of pictures of children at a park and you ask who he works for and he says they're purely "for his own use"...legally you have nothing to charge him with. Does that mean he shouldn't be punished in some way?

Whoow! Punished for taking pics of kids playing in a park? You must be kidding. What the hell is wrong with that? Must one of them be your own in order to do so? How about folks on the street, should that be punishable as well.

Ridiculous!

 

[Taylor510ce]

Once I was takeing wide angle shots of an indoor shopping area. I had a lady approach me after bieng very nice asking who i work for. When I say "Nobody" she flipped out. "How dare you take pictures of me!", "Your not allowed to do this!" When I was explaining she was not even in focus or my subject at all she keeped flipping out. I even showed her the picture I took and it didnt help. I ended it with a stern comment of "Sorry to offend you. Ill delete it if you would like and Im not doing anything illegal... Have a good night." .

Technically, you WERE possibly doing something wrong. If it was an indoor shopping area, it is owned by someone and therefore is private property. Yes, it is a public location, but it is not public property. There is a difference. They can ask you to leave, or refuse you permission to photograph there. She could have complained to the owners. I am sure ( and perhaps the cops posting here can validate this ) that they could charge you with things like disturbing the peace, or possibly even harrassment depending on local laws. Then there is the issue that if a cop shows up and requests you to leave ( and assuming you get all uppity about your photographer rights ) its my guess you wouldn't be too happy with that outcome, because in reality, you would not have that right there. Now if you were standing off property with a really long lens, then they could shove it.

I personally have never had any cops bother me. I actually have been thinking of getting into some editorial shooting and getting a scanner and all that. So I am sure if I did, I would be running into a lot of harrasment by the police. I do tend to make myself obvious as other have stated. I recently went to a local public park in my neighborhood. They have multiple soccer fields and have games on Saturdays. Anyway, it happened to be teen girls playing ( not knowing this before going, I just kinda take whatever happens to be there ). I distinctly remember thinking "I wonder if some parents are wondering if I am some perv or something?" Typically when you have a backpack full of gear, an big gripped SLR, and a huge effin L lens, I think most people assume you aren't some wierdo. I am sure some get pissed regardless, but oh well. If someone came up to me and had a legitimate problem, I would probably ask which kid was theirs and tell them that I would do my best to avoid shots with them in it, but if they were not courteous in response, I would tell them to take a hike.

People forget Police have a huge power called discretion. In a situation like the above I would've probably said to the lady (after talking to the photographer and realising the situation was entirely innocent) "you didn't seem to have a problem with it when you thought he was part of the media, you aren't in focus in the photo therefore you aren't distinguishable and whilst this building may be private property it is open to the general public and this behaviour is perfectly normal, acceptable and a common occurrence in a public place"

Yeah, most of the ones I know also have a thing called "low tolerance for BS" :lmao:

 

[Brutus]

Technically, you WERE possibly doing something wrong. If it was an indoor shopping area, it is owned by someone and therefore is private property. Yes, it is a public location, but it is not public property. There is a difference. They can ask you to leave, or refuse you permission to photograph there. She could have complained to the owners. I am sure ( and perhaps the cops posting here can validate this ) that they could charge you with things like disturbing the peace, or possibly even harrassment depending on local laws. Then there is the issue that if a cop shows up and requests you to leave ( and assuming you get all uppity about your photographer rights ) its my guess you wouldn't be too happy with that outcome, because in reality, you would not have that right there. Now if you were standing off property with a really long lens, then they could shove it.

I personally have never had any cops bother me. I actually have been thinking of getting into some editorial shooting and getting a scanner and all that. So I am sure if I did, I would be running into a lot of harrasment by the police. I do tend to make myself obvious as other have stated. I recently went to a local public park in my neighborhood. They have multiple soccer fields and have games on Saturdays. Anyway, it happened to be teen girls playing ( not knowing this before going, I just kinda take whatever happens to be there ). I distinctly remember thinking "I wonder if some parents are wondering if I am some perv or something?" Typically when you have a backpack full of gear, an big gripped SLR, and a huge effin L lens, I think most people assume you aren't some wierdo. I am sure some get pissed regardless, but oh well. If someone came up to me and had a legitimate problem, I would probably ask which kid was theirs and tell them that I would do my best to avoid shots with them in it, but if they were not courteous in response, I would tell them to take a hike.

People forget Police have a huge power called discretion. In a situation like the above I would've probably said to the lady (after talking to the photographer and realising the situation was entirely innocent) "you didn't seem to have a problem with it when you thought he was part of the media, you aren't in focus in the photo therefore you aren't distinguishable and whilst this building may be private property it is open to the general public and this behaviour is perfectly normal, acceptable and a common occurrence in a public place"

Yeah, most of the ones I know also have a thing called "low tolerance for BS" :lmao:

To be fair, if there are no posted warnings against taking photographs, he wasn't doing anything wrong until someone working there tells him to stop.

 

[Taylor510ce]

People forget Police have a huge power called discretion. In a situation like the above I would've probably said to the lady (after talking to the photographer and realising the situation was entirely innocent) "you didn't seem to have a problem with it when you thought he was part of the media, you aren't in focus in the photo therefore you aren't distinguishable and whilst this building may be private property it is open to the general public and this behaviour is perfectly normal, acceptable and a common occurrence in a public place"

Yeah, most of the ones I know also have a thing called "low tolerance for BS" :lmao:

To be fair, if there are no posted warnings against taking photographs, he wasn't doing anything wrong until someone working there tells him to stop.

That is correct. The worst they can do is ask you to leave. My scenario, was mainly predecated on the fact that they could make him stop shooting and leave, whether politely, or through use of the police. I was mainly referring to the statement in which they told the shopper "they were doing nothing wrong" which in fact they were ( no business in their right mind would side with him taking pictures of and bothering their customers ). Now had he gotten permission from the owner or manager of this operation, then that statement would hold a lot of weight If the cops showed up and a big enough stink was raised, they could probably take your camera or at the very least, erase your photos.This would be no different than me walking into your yard and taking pictures of your house and everything you own. I am sure there are no signs posted telling me not to? Its still private property.

 

[kundalini]

Cops are just people doing a job mostly. A job I'm not suited for. I'd rather keep them on the lens side of life though.

:addpics:​

 

[Stormchase]

As for the sex offender takeing pictures of womens private parts on a public park I would definetly do something if I had the power to do so. I dont care about rights of a photographer. I have morals wich may infact get in the way sometimes. Obviously the sex ofender will be doing a crime again and might be in the procsess of it as the above poster walked up on them. Cheers to doing what you did.

For the private property in a public place. I see the points of haveing your rights there. Even if it is takeing pictures of children its legal and doing nothing wrong on a legal standpoint. What happens from there is a new senareo. 99.999% of the time there is nothing to worry about.
There is common sence to play here. There does not have to be a sign for every crime in the world posted in every public place. I mean look at Pee Wee Herman ... Should there now be signs for that? lol
Great points on everyone!

 

[adversus]

As for the sex offender takeing pictures of womens private parts on a public park I would definetly do something if I had the power to do so. I dont care about rights of a photographer. I have morals wich may infact get in the way sometimes.

Slippery slope, my friend, slippery slope.

Like it or not, unless it violates his probation by taking pictures of private parts in plain view in public, I don't see that he's doing anything illegal (but I'm no lawyer!).

I mean, what if you took someone's picture in public who's religion decried such a practice (being "captured" by film, let's just say)? Do THEY have a right to take your camera or put you in jail? No.

We live in the United States, which means your morals AREN'T my morals, and if it isn't illegal, there isn't anything you can (or should) do about it.

 

[crimbfighter]

Being one of those wretched flatfoots, I feel obligated to chime in on this thread

I watch photographers of all sorts roaming around my beat, and usually can tell in seconds if they need a second look. Often times the ones that get a second look are the ones pointing their cameras at sensitive areas, ie in windows or at buildings that contain sensitive materials like our nuclear reactor or biological agents. Even then a contact usually only consists of 30 seconds of "how ya doin, what are you up to?" So long as my spidie sense doesn't tingle, I go on my way. Bottom line, people have the right to take pictures. Though we wouldn't be doing our jobs a community caretakers if we didn't at least check given our current social climate.

I did contact a guy once who was taking pictures of girls sun bathing on a grassy lawn. It's a well known spot where on nice days, 100+ girls will be basking in the rays. He voluntarily showed me his camera, and there were over 300 close up pictures of girls naughty bits on there. Needless to say a check of his record indicated he was a sex offender... Go figure... Unfortunately, in cases like this, those people are protected by the same rights you and I are, so there really isn't anything we can even do to someone like that. Although I bluffed and told him I would release a statement to the press with his name in it and what he was up to. It worked...he deleted the photos and left.

I find this whole scenario slightly chilling. Forget the knee-jerk reaction we all have about sex offenders for a moment. Here is a police officer who's not happy with current laws about photographers, so he lies to a citizen and threatens him. THIS is why we get harassed on the streets. It's not ignorance of the laws protecting photographers, it's police officers knowing the law and ignoring it.

My personal opinion? Lock up sex offenders forever. No parole. But here we have a cop who doesn't like the law, so uses his uniform and badge to threaten and intimidate someone doing something legal. I wonder what other thing's he's done on duty to a citizen because he didn't like them, but knew they weren't breaking any laws?

Like I said, chilling.

Don't you dare make assumptions about who I am or what "other things" I might do on duty. You have no idea how many battles I have fought to protect peoples rights. Including almost loosing my job because I flat out told my department administrators I wouldn't write someone a citation because I felt it wasn't constitutional! Do you honestly think I go about at random and "make people pay" because I don't like what they are doing? Boy, you've got some serious perspective issues. And what about the rights of the girls to be free of harassing behavior? Based on your comment, I have to assume you are only interested in your own agenda, and have no consideration for how the law applies to all. And for your information, the Constitution, and the United States Supreme Court says I can do exactly what I did. If you don't like it, writer your congressman...

sam justice, Psychic Celebrity Friends say you're from the UK, am I correct? I'm pretty sure in America, a police officer cannot demand to see what pictures you've taken. I believe a judges order is required. But, as I said, if a police officer approached me, I'd tell him what I was shooting and offer to show him.

You are correct on this. In order to look at the photos without consent, we need a warrant or exigent circumstances, but exigent circumstances wouldn't really apply here. So yes, we need a warrant signed by a judge. And we would only get a warrant if we can articulate the photos contained evidence of a crime.

As for the sex offender takeing pictures of womens private parts on a public park I would definetly do something if I had the power to do so. I dont care about rights of a photographer. I have morals wich may infact get in the way sometimes.

Slippery slope, my friend, slippery slope.

Like it or not, unless it violates his probation by taking pictures of private parts in plain view in public, I don't see that he's doing anything illegal (but I'm no lawyer!).

I mean, what if you took someone's picture in public who's religion decried such a practice (being "captured" by film, let's just say)? Do THEY have a right to take your camera or put you in jail? No.

We live in the United States, which means your morals AREN'T my morals, and if it isn't illegal, there isn't anything you can (or should) do about it.

You're absolutely right on this, from a legal aspect, it's all or none. Everyone has the right, or nobody does. And you're also right, he wasn't doing anything illegal. But does that mean I should have said, "oh well, sorry girls, there's nothing I can do, enjoy having your crotches photographed by a sex offender." We have many tools at our disposal, namely our ability to bull****, to obtain a common goal without violating anyones rights. There is something called common morality. Sets of guidelines which the majority consider to be immoral. And in this case, in these circumstances, he was in violation of that common morality. So even though he wasn't in violation of any laws, I will do anything within my legal ability and discretion to convince him to move along. Also, I didn't happen across this guy by random, I was called there by many of the girls who were so freaked out by this guy they were afraid for their safety. But, according to DennyCrane, I should have ignored those pleas for help from the girls on the other end of that lens.

 

[adversus]

You totally had a duty to investigate the situation, no doubt about that. And I wouldn't argue that.

I hate to "be that guy", but seriously, if you are sunbathing in public, you shouldn't be surprised if someone wants to look. Just like you shouldn't be surprised if someone was offended and uncomfortable with seeing scantly clad people sunbathing.

Both are legal. Back to the slippery slope. You have the right to sunbathe with a bikini, others have a write to photograph your butt crack. The joys of a free society.

 

[FemFugler]

I have never been approached by an officer for photographing in public.

However just to comment on what Taylor said about the whole not wanting to come across as a perv. I totally can relate. lol Even though i am an 18 yr old female.... I often go to the park to take some of my shots and most of the time there are kids. I *try* and avoid them from being in my photos for multiple reasons, the major one being that i don't want to come across as being a perv or something. In fact often times i'll leave or move to a new location if there's a lot of kids there because i don't want to make the kids or parents feel the slightest bit uncomfortable about my presence with a big camera. Sometimes i go through the bike trail and stuff too and since its an area quite close to the park a lot of times kids and go alone or with their family and often times i put my camera down because i don't want to get the wrong idea across. I don't try and hide my camera in any way i just remove it from my face so it's clear that i have stopped taking pictures.

I have had a parent ask me what i was taking pictures of while i was in the bike trail and i was very open with him, still though like i said above i removed the camera from my face to reassure him that i wasn't taking pictures of his family(i don't even know if thats what he was even concerned about or if he was just genuinely curious of the fact that i was taking pictures of an empty bike trail! lol)

To be honest if a cop approached me i wouldn't mind at all. I'd of course offer to let him/her see the photos as well and i'd be more than willing to provide him/her with any information they may be curious of.

I think the whole 'you dont HAVE to show your camera to the cop' thing is true but if you dont it kind of looks suspicious.... like you dont HAVE to open/empy your bag but if you deny it then it kind of looks bad on your part. Like if your doing everything right then why would you have to hid sort of thing? None the less regardless of the whole 'looking bad' i would still be more than happy and most likely offer to show my pictures to them.

Oh and in response to Crimbfighter's situation i honestly don't blame him. I mean i do agree with the fact that if you are sunbathing in public then you shouldn't really complain too much if someone is taking pictures of you. I mean i admit if it were me sunbathing i would probably be a little creeped out if it were obvious that he was aiming at me but at the end of the day it is in public so i would probably just get up and leave. Back to Crimbfighter's situation, i think the key thing here is the fact that the person had zoomed into areas that makes it cross the line. I would say if the person just had pictures of a busy beach or even maybe some candid/snapshot type shots or the water or whatever then i would say ya the person shouldn't have been arrested, BUT since he zoomed into strange places of strangers then i personally think that he did the right thing and if i were in his shoes i would probably do the same.

 

[Flash Harry]

Being in possession of a camera doesn't give you permission to photograph anything you like imo, if I have someone in the frame I usually wait till they are out of it, if I want to photograph a stranger I'll usually ask them if they mind, I NEVER shoot kids or include them in a photograph without permission, I normally keep well away from kids parks when toting a camera and would myself be highly suspicious of any person doing similar and though I'm quite partial to a lady's personal bits I think the person who was stopped by the officer would have been charged over here, with at least, "breach of the peace", and whether you have similar morals or not you should respect anothers right to privacy and ask permission before shooting that person in a compromising pose, keeping your depraved views where they belong, in your own home where your judgement will not affect a complete stranger. H