Proud of Myself - Declined A Low Paying Gig

[ghache]

The guy should walk in an "non professional" photography meet/club or whatever and tell them keep their camera off because they hurt the photography business. Oh. he just did. He should expect to get chairs thrown at

Do you think these kinds of conversations DON'T occur at local hobby groups or clubs?

And no one is telling you to keep your camera turned off, or to NOT shoot things.

All he is saying is that you have the luxury of an 80K a year job, why do you need more? If your company outsourced your job to a foreign country, and hired employees that were paid 1/4 of your annual salary... you'd be pretty pissed off, wouldn't you? Its the same concept.

They dont occur because they kinda respect each other, pro or not and it should be the same here i guess.
Comments he made was not directed towards me but i feel i am in that group. i would tell him to stfu over and over.

Some people just want more and some people is doing it for fun, social and whatever reason they are doing it for.. i dont see nothing wrong with this.

 

[PhotoWrangler]

Some peoples doesnt want more, some people wants to switch/have another career.

Well you can't ride two horses with one ass..... But don't fault someone else for feeling the same way you would if your job were taken.

 

[ghache]

Some peoples doesnt want more, some people wants to switch/have another career.

Well you can't ride two horses with one ass..... But don't fault someone else for feeling the same way you would if your job were taken.

Wow, you clearly start to get the big picture.
Why would you start being a consultant and works as a contractor when you clearly know that the business works that way? and cryyyyyy about it. Especially when the field you contact in is mostly art and used by peoples from 5 to 100 year old for decades.

 

[Destin]

I'd tell them that if are making 80k a year can afford to buy the gear and are accepting money as an amateur, taking money out of the pockets of the guys that are trying to make it as full time photographers to look at themselves and see what they are doing. If you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer prove it by trying to do it for 6 months, saying that you won't quit your 80k job but don't have a problem with undercutting some guy that has the guts to try and make it as a pro is weak.. Amateurs like you are part of the problem. It is quite obvious that you don't have the confidence, skills or abilities to cut it as a professional, but you don't have a problem cheating the guy that is trying.

I know a lot of guys that struggle for every penny they make, they have something that you will never have, the passion to try. You think kids coming out of school jump right into it, no they work at low paying jobs to make money to buy the gear, they take shoots on for little money, they build a portoflio while in school paying for the classes to become photographers, they look for clients, and not all of them will make it, but they don't decide one day while making 80k a year that it would be fun to be a photographer, I'm secure, I have a pay cheque, I can afford to do it. So every job you charge too little for is money that some kid may have got to help him succeed. No respect, no understanding, that's what I'm telling you "non-professionals"

I dont see how this is different, the kid out of school is also undercutting the pros to make a portfolio, get clients? and wants to become a professional right?

^^^^ THIS: How do ever expect any of us "amatures" to get anywhere in the photography world? You can't tell me that all you seasoned old pros just magically became a professional overnight, and started with your prices at a professional level. Everyone starts low and works their way up, and they always have.

You've just got your panties up in a bunch because there are a whole lot more amatures shooting with the advent of digital than there were in the film days. Cry me a river, it's happening in EVERY other career. I'm 18 and aiming to be a professional. I realize the state of the market and it just means that I have to make myself stand out from the competition even more, with BOTH the quality of my work, and my business etiquette.

Take contractors for example. Can you get someone to fix your house for half price? Sure. But they aren't going to have the same quality of work most likely, and (GASP!) They might have to work around the hours of their full time job. It's the same in photography and a million other jobs. Were you born yesterday, or are you blindfolded? It's not just photography.

 

[benhasajeep]

All of my photography work is word of mouth. My advertising budget is $0. I am not full time though. But I do have several very long time accounts. And obviously they tell other people I may help them. In 90% of the cases with the people calling me. I have to politely say no. Honnestly, a lot of it has to do with scheduling. As I am away for my normal job. Most of these calls are either people who waited till the last minute, or are looking for a deal. My wife who is just starting out, wants to take these assignments. And I have to tell her why its not good to take them. She just see's the money comming in part of it, but not the whole picture (no pun intended). I do let her do some realty photo work for alot less than should be done. But that is not hurting anyone else, and it gives her some learning experience, and we about break even with it. The hardest part is to get her to slowly raise the rates she charges. Even with a couple clients who tell her she is not charging enough. For her its a confidence thing. For people with this confidence block, it's hard to get them to see the light. Especially if they are family.

 

[imagemaker46]

You see now that I have thrown the rock in the water all the ripples have started, This is how people learn, if I was to just to float along and not say anything, not disagree with anyone or state my opinion, then there would be no understanding. I can try and get a point across to people, from the side of a professional that has been in the business for many years, and as I expected all the amateurs get upset because someone has stated some facts they don't agree with. This is all fine, even if for an instant people think about the domino affect that undercutiing has on the business as a whole. If photographer A decides to charge $10 for a photo it forces photographer B to charge less, this continues until nether one makes any profit, so now that the market has started to collapse, photographer A says "I can't believe all these people charging so little" and now he can't make a living at it, when it was him that started the collapse in the first place. Personal responsibility, it's always someone elses fault. I have accepted my share of personal faults over the years.

I read though the posts, and I understand that it is not just happening in photography, however this is a photo forum. So my concerns are not about writers, jewelers or any other businesses. I have discussed this subject at camera clubs, some understand, some respect the reasons why, but honestly, they have shown enough class as not to start telling me to shut the **** up, once you do that your opinion means nothing to me and you have lost the argument.

Inspite of what you may think of what I said, I am right. Kids in photo schools, that want to make it in photography will find it more difficult than ever, after spending thousands of dollars on school, approximately 1% will be involved as full time photographers a year later. It's not guys like me that have made it tough to work in this business, I'm established, I already have clients that respect the work I do. I've dedicated most of my life to photography, I've taught photography, and helped out more photographers than I can count, I give back to photography where ever I can. I'm honest with what I say, and care about what others think, but I won't back down when it comes to dealing with people that aren't interested in understanding, what I do is say my piece and ignore them, some people don't care, it seems that there are alot on this forum that are willing to learn and try to understand the "business" of photography, there are a lot that won't. That's fine.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

It is the same in many, many sectors of business. It's not just a phenomenon to Pro Photographers. :meh:

 

[imagemaker46]

I realize that, and am sure that your business is greatly affected by all the cheap products coming in from China. Working in the media I talk to writers that have seen there work drop off as well, afterall anyone can write a story, use spell check and grammar check to fix their mistakes, much like camera owners using photoshop to cover up their mistakes. It's the people that are in a position of doing the hiring, or purchasing, that have started to accept what would have been considered unacceptable a couple of years ago. How good a story is or how good a photograph is doesn't always matter anymore as long as it fills a space.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Is this more because the market for many things is even more price driven now, than ever, or is it the fault of amateurs?

 

[FatBoy]

I know I'm going to get flamed big time for this one but don't care, what the hell, it's an internet forum.

Purely hypothetical situation:
Say my neighbor owns an auto body shop and I start doing "amateur" auto body repair out of my home garage. Customers go to him and pay $1000 for something I'm willing to do for $300 but my work looks like sh!t. Am I really taking food out of his mouth? No, because people who want quality work are still going to him and only people who can't afford him and are ok with shoddy work are coming to me. The customers I get would never go to him in the first place.

If you are a professional and losing customers maybe it's because you aren't keeping up with the times and don't have anything new to offer? Surely you should be able to out perform these "amateurs" who don't produce anywhere near the quality of work you do.

 

[PhotoWrangler]

I know I'm going to get flamed big time for this one but don't care, what the hell, it's an internet forum.

Purely hypothetical situation:
Say my neighbor owns an auto body shop and I start doing "amateur" auto body repair out of my home garage. Customers go to him and pay $1000 for something I'm willing to do for $300 but my work looks like sh!t. Am I really taking food out of his mouth? No, because people who want quality work are still going to him and only people who can't afford him and are ok with shoddy work are coming to me. The customers I get would never go to him in the first place.

If you are a professional and losing customers maybe it's because you aren't keeping up with the times and don't have anything new to offer? Surely you should be able to out perform these "amateurs" who don't produce anywhere near the quality of work you do.

The problem is that people may associate your ****ty work with your neighbors garage, and then he has to spend time assuring his clients that his work is BETTER than yours, and his business is NOT associated with yours, and what his certifications are, and that his work is guaranteed.

 

[imagemaker46]

I think the market is money driven, fewer bucks to go around so people are settling for less, this is where the amateurs come into play, because they may or may not have had a cutback, maybe not getting the same money they used to, fewer hours, they figure why not just make the money up with a camera. What then happens is that the potential customer that used to look for a photographer looks at the price before looking at the quality. This really isn't anything new, it used to happen in the film days, but then there were fewer camera owners because of the film costs, processing, printing etc. With digital that is not a concern so less gets more. So who pays for the amateurs trying to make up their lost money, the full time photographers. If I decided to start doing taxes using a $50 software program and charging $50 to do taxes, how many full time CA's would start to get complain, all of them.

So as a guy trying to just make a living like everyone else is getting hit because someone with a camera and a full time job wants to make a little extra spending money. I know how to do body work, I know how to paint as well, (I took classes years ago) but I wouldn't start doing it simply because I want to make a few extra bucks, I have too much respect for the guys that need the business and is more experienced. This applies to every job on the planet, so we don't need to start adding more examples.

Personally I have clients that I have had for over a decade, I change with the times, upgrade when I can, I'm not losing clients, neither are most of the photographers I know, they aren't getting enough new clients, this is where the flood of camera owners comes into play, doesn't matter if it's a friend of the family, and aunt or uncle, if they own a camera people will settle for that now. The average person doesn't care about quality, they don't know a great photo from a happy snap, read the comments on this forum, the word awesome gets used and the picture is out of focus, how is that awesome, and ask them to explain why it's awesome, they can't, they don't know the difference.

 

[ghache]

I know I'm going to get flamed big time for this one but don't care, what the hell, it's an internet forum.

Purely hypothetical situation:
Say my neighbor owns an auto body shop and I start doing "amateur" auto body repair out of my home garage. Customers go to him and pay $1000 for something I'm willing to do for $300 but my work looks like sh!t. Am I really taking food out of his mouth? No, because people who want quality work are still going to him and only people who can't afford him and are ok with shoddy work are coming to me. The customers I get would never go to him in the first place.

If you are a professional and losing customers maybe it's because you aren't keeping up with the times and don't have anything new to offer? Surely you should be able to out perform these "amateurs" who don't produce anywhere near the quality of work you do.

The problem is that people may associate your ****ty work with your neighbors garage, and then he has to spend time assuring his clients that his work is BETTER than yours, and his business is NOT associated with yours, and what his certifications are, and that his work is guaranteed.

It also doesnt mean that you charge less that you work is ****.


I had my car bumper fixed in a "backyard garage" for 200$ when 3 body shop i visited quoted me 600$ for the same job they couldnt have done better.

 

[PhotoWrangler]

At this point... the only proper response is.

 

[o hey tyler]

lols, also bbq.