Proud of Myself - Declined A Low Paying Gig

[gsgary]

The biggest problems with amateurs that are working full time jobs outside of photography is that they can first of all, afford to buy the gear, second of all, don't have to charge as much because they aren't dealing with eveything else that goes along with trying to work full time as a photographer, and they have a regular pay cheque coming in. Digital changed everything and over the past 5 years it has gotten worse for alot of full time professionals. I know way too many that are seeing their work drop off in huge chunks, some have had to close their studios and work from their homes, these are photographers with decades of experience. The standard with which people used to expect has been lowered, people will now accept mediocre as good, because they don't see the difference anymore.

I have some great clients that respect the work I do for them, I have lost some clients because someone on their staff has decided they can do the job, they quickly prove the opposite and I end up charging them more to fix the mistake. I adjust my fees based on job and not so much on an hour/day/week rate, offering up packages for events, plus charge digital and computer time as well now. The bottom line is that I used to turn down some jobs, now I take eveything that comes my way and negotiate out a fee that works for both myself and the client. Working is better than not working, and each job you accept offers the potential of meeting new people that may turn into potential clients.

The full time job amateurs with cameras playing in the pro market have no understanding what they are doing to the professional business, and for the most part they don't really care. Sadly it is the way photography has changed.

I am going to interject a tad on your first sentence. I work a regular full time job but I certainly am having hard time affording the equipment. I want to make photography full time, and this year it looks like I am well on my way as I am pretty booked, however just because I have another job doesn't mean that I am a hobbyist that can afford this stuff. I agree to a degree however that the people who don't want to make a living out of it and just do it for fun seem to have a lot more money to throw around. I sold a vintage lens to a guy who didn't really like photography but thought it was kind of neat to pass the time and had gone out and bought himself a D7000...something I know many a pro are drooling over.

In response to Christopher Coy: I don't have as much to insure, so the cost is pretty low for that. I don't have a studio, I don't have employees. I never hire a second shooter unless a client requests it, but if they do, the price certainly goes up so that I can pay that second shooter well for their time and effort. Once this is a full time job for me you better believe that my prices will be higher as I have to pay rent somehow!!! Do I want to upgrade my equipment? Well of course, who doesn't always want something bigger and shinier? Right now the only thing that I need is the D7000. I have some great lenses in my wheelhouse for all kinds of occasions, 4 strobes, wireless triggers, backdrops, umbrellas, brollies, stands, remotes, tripods, props, the whole nine yards. All I am really interested in getting into full time is Sports photography. I have everything I need for that except for a better low light camera and the job. Lol. I do see where you are coming from though that there are a lot of costs associated with this. To me, bringing in $1200 from one event is my rent and car payment for the month that I don't have to take from my paychecks from my other job and for me that is huge. We all come from different walks of life. Some live paycheck to paycheck like me, others are very comfortable. It all depends on the photog I guess!

You don't have the lenses to shoot sport

 

[imagemaker46]

I agree that you are a couple lenses shy of being able to compete in the sports world as a pro. So start saving a 300 2.8 will set you back a few dollars and I'm guessing that a 400 2.8 is out of reach. As I have said on many occations, and not just directed at anyone in particular, if you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer, quit your full time job today and do it, photography is not as much fun when it's a full time job, with all the full time worries, and there are alot of them.

 

[tirediron]

The biggest problems with amateurs...

Which I suspect is probably very similar to what was said by many a wet-plate photographer when that Eastman punk came along with his new-fangled flm on a roll that anyone could buy and load into a Box Brownie!

 

[ghache]

The biggest problems with amateurs that are working full time jobs outside of photography is that they can first of all, afford to buy the gear, second of all, don't have to charge as much because they aren't dealing with eveything else that goes along with trying to work full time as a photographer, and they have a regular pay cheque coming in. Digital changed everything and over the past 5 years it has gotten worse for alot of full time professionals. I know way too many that are seeing their work drop off in huge chunks, some have had to close their studios and work from their homes, these are photographers with decades of experience. The standard with which people used to expect has been lowered, people will now accept mediocre as good, because they don't see the difference anymore.

I have some great clients that respect the work I do for them, I have lost some clients because someone on their staff has decided they can do the job, they quickly prove the opposite and I end up charging them more to fix the mistake. I adjust my fees based on job and not so much on an hour/day/week rate, offering up packages for events, plus charge digital and computer time as well now. The bottom line is that I used to turn down some jobs, now I take eveything that comes my way and negotiate out a fee that works for both myself and the client. Working is better than not working, and each job you accept offers the potential of meeting new people that may turn into potential clients.

The full time job amateurs with cameras playing in the pro market have no understanding what they are doing to the professional business, and for the most part they don't really care. Sadly it is the way photography has changed.

The biguest problem with amateur?

Are you telling us "non professional photographers" that we should'nt accept gigs for not alot of money because we hurt pro photography? Everyone try thier way, What would you tell to the non-professionals photographers whos starving, can't pay the bills because they decided to go into photography full time without a strong portfolio, without any exposure, contacts, without any money to buy gear? IMO you dont become a professional photographer by snaping fingers. I would really like to make the jump but for now most of us can't. I wont quit my 80k a year job without being sure i can pay my bills.

 

[imagemaker46]

I'd tell them that if are making 80k a year can afford to buy the gear and are accepting money as an amateur, taking money out of the pockets of the guys that are trying to make it as full time photographers to look at themselves and see what they are doing. If you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer prove it by trying to do it for 6 months, saying that you won't quit your 80k job but don't have a problem with undercutting some guy that has the guts to try and make it as a pro is weak.. Amateurs like you are part of the problem. It is quite obvious that you don't have the confidence, skills or abilities to cut it as a professional, but you don't have a problem cheating the guy that is trying.

I know a lot of guys that struggle for every penny they make, they have something that you will never have, the passion to try. You think kids coming out of school jump right into it, no they work at low paying jobs to make money to buy the gear, they take shoots on for little money, they build a portoflio while in school paying for the classes to become photographers, they look for clients, and not all of them will make it, but they don't decide one day while making 80k a year that it would be fun to be a photographer, I'm secure, I have a pay cheque, I can afford to do it. So every job you charge too little for is money that some kid may have got to help him succeed. No respect, no understanding, that's what I'm telling you "non-professionals"

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Dude!

There are people who will under cut quality work in any profession.

Get over it already.

The people who want to pay for quality work, will.
The people who can't, won't.

Sheesh!

 

[imagemaker46]

Working as a professional photographer Jeweler? ya didn't think so. It's not so much that people will pay for quality work, it's that people have lowered their idea of what quality work is, where people used to hire professionals to shoot weddings are now using the weekend shooters because they are charging less, professionals are now having to also charge less to compete with this "new" market. I don't shoot weddings but have friends that have seen their business drop by 40%-50% over last year. In my business I'm not affected as much but I have had to make changes to the way I quote on jobs, when it comes down to trying to quote against free, I'll lose everytime, regardless of how good I am.

So in your business if amateurs started charging less to make your trinkets, would you have any concerns?

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Yeah, your right. In my business, there is no concern of competition, or being held to the lower prices of the schlock work. What was I thinking.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

Dude!

There are people who will under cut quality work in any profession.

Get over it already.

The people who want to pay for quality work, will.
The people who can't, won't.

Sheesh!

:thumbup:


Imagemaker, I work full time as a photog with a large, brand new studio and a full time staff but I would play a very small violin for you if I had one

First, as Bitter said, this is happening in just about every profession and has been happening for a very long time. Second, not only am I not worried about the next generation but I am quite willing to help some of them make it. With this attitude of yours, I can't help but wonder what you are doing here on TPF... you will only help other members if they promise not to go and take gigs?

 

[ghache]

I'd tell them that if are making 80k a year can afford to buy the gear and are accepting money as an amateur, taking money out of the pockets of the guys that are trying to make it as full time photographers to look at themselves and see what they are doing. If you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer prove it by trying to do it for 6 months, saying that you won't quit your 80k job but don't have a problem with undercutting some guy that has the guts to try and make it as a pro is weak.. Amateurs like you are part of the problem. It is quite obvious that you don't have the confidence, skills or abilities to cut it as a professional, but you don't have a problem cheating the guy that is trying.

I know a lot of guys that struggle for every penny they make, they have something that you will never have, the passion to try. You think kids coming out of school jump right into it, no they work at low paying jobs to make money to buy the gear, they take shoots on for little money, they build a portoflio while in school paying for the classes to become photographers, they look for clients, and not all of them will make it, but they don't decide one day while making 80k a year that it would be fun to be a photographer, I'm secure, I have a pay cheque, I can afford to do it. So every job you charge too little for is money that some kid may have got to help him succeed. No respect, no understanding, that's what I'm telling you "non-professionals"

no respect? no understanding? your telling me that i should stop doing what i love to do? you are retarded. sorry for you you had to take to bumpy road to become a full time photographer. I will pay my bills and have a fully loaded studio and no dept before i start doing photography full time. i feel sorry for you, because i still need to undercut you for a few year.

The passion to try? stfu

 

[PhotoWrangler]

no respect? no understanding? your telling me that i should stop doing what i love to do? you are retarded. sorry for you you had to take to bumpy road to become a full time photographer. I will pay my bills and have a fully loaded studio and no dept before i start doing photography full time. i feel sorry for you, because i still need to undercut you for a few year.

The passion to try? stfu

Telling someone to STFU is not very professional. If you're trying to 'go pro', start acting like it.

 

[ghache]

I'd tell them that if are making 80k a year can afford to buy the gear and are accepting money as an amateur, taking money out of the pockets of the guys that are trying to make it as full time photographers to look at themselves and see what they are doing. If you think you are good enough to be a professional photographer prove it by trying to do it for 6 months, saying that you won't quit your 80k job but don't have a problem with undercutting some guy that has the guts to try and make it as a pro is weak.. Amateurs like you are part of the problem. It is quite obvious that you don't have the confidence, skills or abilities to cut it as a professional, but you don't have a problem cheating the guy that is trying.

I know a lot of guys that struggle for every penny they make, they have something that you will never have, the passion to try. You think kids coming out of school jump right into it, no they work at low paying jobs to make money to buy the gear, they take shoots on for little money, they build a portoflio while in school paying for the classes to become photographers, they look for clients, and not all of them will make it, but they don't decide one day while making 80k a year that it would be fun to be a photographer, I'm secure, I have a pay cheque, I can afford to do it. So every job you charge too little for is money that some kid may have got to help him succeed. No respect, no understanding, that's what I'm telling you "non-professionals"

I dont see how this is different, the kid out of school is also undercutting the pros to make a portfolio, get clients? and wants to become a professional right?

 

[ghache]

no respect? no understanding? your telling me that i should stop doing what i love to do? you are retarded. sorry for you you had to take to bumpy road to become a full time photographer. I will pay my bills and have a fully loaded studio and no dept before i start doing photography full time. i feel sorry for you, because i still need to undercut you for a few year.

The passion to try? stfu

Telling someone to STFU is not very professional. If you're trying to 'go pro', start acting like it.

The guy should walk in an "non professional" photography meet/club or whatever and tell them keep their camera off because they hurt the photography business. Oh. he just did. He should expect to get chairs thrown at

 

[PhotoWrangler]

The guy should walk in an "non professional" photography meet/club or whatever and tell them keep their camera off because they hurt the photography business. Oh. he just did. He should expect to get chairs thrown at

Do you think these kinds of conversations DON'T occur at local hobby groups or clubs?

And no one is telling you to keep your camera turned off, or to NOT shoot things.

All he is saying is that you have the luxury of an 80K a year job, why do you need more? If your company outsourced your job to a foreign country, and hired employees that were paid 1/4 of your annual salary... you'd be pretty pissed off, wouldn't you? Its the same concept.

 

[digital flower]

I am glad I am not a wedding photographer. I have never seen a group that is so concerned about bottom feeders and competition from amateurs. As the owner of a small business that anyone can join by slapping a sign on the side of a pickup truck I don't worry about people like that. I saw an ad on craiglist saying "will clean up any yard for $50". That is less than I charge just to get in the truck and look at your work. Does it bother me? No because I don't really want to work for people that want to spend $50. The others can have those jobs all day long. I try and base our higher prices on the fact that we have more experience and knowledge and good customer service. That is a better business model than bitchin' about somebody trying to take out the low end jobs that we don't want anyway.

To the OP. We have lowered our prices a little (in that other business) and a few years ago I might have scoffed at taking a $1,000 job but these days you will get a call back and probably a look at your job. That is just a nod to the economic times. Our best advertising is word of mouth so I try and look to see if there is any potential for that with the lower price work. But if you can turn down work and feel good about it more power to you.