Second shooter rights...

DepthAfield · Mar 2, 2006

Thanks to all for the advice!

I'll contact the 'pro' and tell her I'll sign away my copyright with the provision that I be allowed to use the images in my portfolio.

Christie Photo · Mar 2, 2006

photogoddess said:
Pete's the pro on this wedding??? Holy smokes dude - ... You're ahead of the game already since you have got yourself a great guy to assist for. :thumbsup:

This finally sunk in. Thanks so much for the nice words!

Pete

markc · Mar 2, 2006

Christie Photo said:
For everyone else... we have nothing in writing, just a gentleman's agreement.

I love the idea of a word and a handshake, but these days, I think it's kind of dangerous. I doubt this will change your mind, but for anyone else reading, I highly recommend having written contracts, even between best friends. Plus things can get really sticky if you need to pass rights on to anyone else, like one-time publication.

danalec99 · Mar 2, 2006

DepthAfield said:
I'll contact the 'pro' and tell her I'll sign away my copyright with the provision that I be allowed to use the images in my portfolio.

1. Unfortunately you do not get to set the terms. Ask her nicely; I'm sure she won't mind.

2. What do you plan to gain from doing this gig? Images for your portfolio, the experience, the small change, bit of everything? I would give more weight to the experience part. Observe her, see how she handles the crowd, how she shoots, how she handles the situation when Mr. Murphy shows up etc etc.

Good luck and have fun!! :thumbsup:

DepthAfield · Mar 3, 2006

danalec99 said:
1. Unfortunately you do not get to set the terms. Ask her nicely; I'm sure she won't mind.

Im a bit leery of not getting something on paper that guarantees my right to use my images in a portfolio If this pro wants me as second shooter, shell have to abide by my wishes, or find someone else.

My reason for sounding a bit militant on this issue is because a wedding videographer burned me recently. I had a handshake agreement with this individual; he used my stills in his video, but refused to return the disc of image files for my portfolio! He said the images were entirely his property since I was his employee. I was most certainly NOT his employee, and was in fact only doing him a favor by providing stills for this particular video. My blood boils just thinking about it

I agree that some valuable experience could be gained by working with a pro, but Im thinking that a studio that would refuse this simple request is one that I would rather not have a business association with.

Azuth · Mar 3, 2006

Asked to be "Second shooter" sounds different to me than asked to help out with everything on the day as a general assistant.

I agree with the others, there should be no reason why the 'pro' wouldn't say yes to you using your photo's in your portfolio, and if they say no and you feel strongly about it you can politely decline their offer. Asking still sounds very different to telling if it's their gig.

Er, in reference to your post above, it implies that you gave away your only copies of images you had taken? Surely not!

If you had no agreement at all you are entitled to do whatever you want with your images. If he came up to you and asked you to take stills for his video and you received something in return for that with no written agreement it's shakey ground for all concerned. I'd write more but rights are covered better in other threads and elsewhere I'm sure.

DepthAfield · Mar 3, 2006

Azuth said:
Er, in reference to your post above, it implies that you gave away your only copies of images you had taken? Surely not!

Surely YES! Stupidly, I burned the images to disc and then formatted the CF card, thinking that the disc would be returned. Yes, I am a moron. sigh

danalec99 · Mar 3, 2006

DepthAfield said:
but Im thinking that a studio that would refuse this simple request is one that I would rather not have a business association with.

Indeed; there are lots of other pro photographers out there.

But know that by letting you use your images for the portfolio, they are doing you a favour. They are hiring you for the wedding they booked. Remember, you did not do the sales pitch to the actual client (the couple), you did not promote the business, you don't have to care if you got all the 'must have' shots. You just have to show up one fine morning and shoot to your heart's content without second thoughts, which is actually fun

, but they hold the reins.

Rob · Mar 3, 2006

DepthAfield said:
Surely YES! Stupidly, I burned the images to disc and then formatted the CF card, thinking that the disc would be returned. Yes, I am a moron. …sigh…

You're not a moron, because you will NEVER forget the incident and get done like that again. Small business is all about surviving for the start up and then building on your successes and learning from mistakes. Besides, you have to believe in the old circular theory - what goes around... comes around. He'll get his dues sure enough.

For the second shooter thing, I think the experts here have covered things well. You don't know everything yet, so you'll surely learn valuable tips and tricks from the day. I think a short note to the effect of "I agree to allow <insert name> to use images he has taken for personal portfolio useage only for an indefinite period." would do it. There's no significant commercial reason to prevent you doing this, but don't push it too hard and lose out on a small point like this!

Good luck with your assignment, and do let us all know how it went!

Rob

markc · Mar 3, 2006

Thought I'd post some links on work-for-hire:
http://danheller.blogspot.com/2005/04/work-for-hire-contracts-when-theyre.html
http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/self-training_resources/legacy_report/questions.html

I think the second one applies to your videographer situation. Unless he had you sign a contract stating otherwise, you have the rights. Now, that doesn't mean you can force him to give you the disk. You have to prove that it's your property and only loaned it to him, which is a separate issue. If it's really important to you, I'd consult a lawyer.

DepthAfield · Mar 3, 2006

My experience with the previously mentioned videographer has, unfortunately, not only dampened my enthusiasm for shooting weddings as anything other than the primary photog, but also made me more than a little wary of simple handshake agreements of any kind.

markc said:
If it's really important to you, I'd consult a lawyer.

I came very close to taking legal action My attorney was prepared to take the videographer to court over this matter, but I backed out. Reason? Said videographer is the son of a co-worker. Taking this a##hole to court would have made for a very uncomfortable work relationship with his father. Its a long and convoluted story

Many thanks to all that have responded in this thread! TPF is a fantastic forum!