Slack or plainly inept?

danalec99 · Sep 25, 2007

elsaspet said:
I don't know about anyone else around here, but my time is valuable to me. If I have a question, I ask it.

I don't believe the fine gentlemen in this thread are against asking questions. The issue as I see is towards people who don't even want to make an effort.

Garbz had a great example in the first post:

I study engineering so we're kind of expected to go out and do a bit of research. 2 hours before our exam on transmission lines someone asked me how to solve one of the tute questions. I nearly lost it. 1) it was answered in the tute, 2) the solutions are up on the course website (person in question had his laptop next to him), and 3) that question was the first example in the set chapter in the prescribed textbook.

There is a difference between:

'Hi, I'm going to start a photography business next month. what camera should I buy'

and

'should I pick 40D over a 1Ds Mark III'.

The first question is asked by the person who has not made an effort at all. (when I see questions like that my initial reaction, even though I don't spell it out is, 'What car should I buy?')

To which your response I assume would be 'we all were once newbies and have asked the same questions'. Yes we were newbies, but with lots of drive. Let's take you for example. You thoroughly did you research. You had an "I want to learn" attitude. You had the hunger and hungry people do not wait to be fed. You worked real hard towards your goals. And now you are reaping the harvest.

No amount of spoon-feeding will replace hard work backed by passion. There is a fine line between feeding and helping.

usayit · Sep 25, 2007

For me, it comes down to one thing.... If the original poster doesn't want to put any effort into the first post in a thread they create, why would they expect those responding to do any differently.

-- edit --

seems that danalec and I are on the same page.. hehe..

If your time is valuable and limited, the least you can do is expect everyone else's to be just as valuable.

LaFoto · Sep 25, 2007

And yet, Daniel, why come along all uppity (which you don't do, but some here are just about to develop that tendency) ... such questions as "What camera should I by?" come and go and won't get my reply, for all I then do is think: "That decision is entirely up to you in the end, what can we say?"

I mean, sure enough I have been phoned up by people before or been asked on another of the forums I go to what camera I (since they all seem to think I am the knowledgable one, cough-cough) would recommend they give their wives, sons, whoever, as present for Christmas. Then, in our conversation, we find out what they want to achieve in the end, how much knowledge of photography as such they have to begin with, also how good they are with things (I would never recommend an SLR or a DSLR to a mother who says "My son's such a messy, he keeps losing things and I am afraid he might even lose the camera!" - in such cases you best NOT have both body and lens! For example ... but again that is only my opinion).

But the decision is taken by those people in the end!

So personally I tend to entirely skip those threads.

But I know from my husband, who sometimes goes to a Flight Simulator Forum, but who does not register there because he hates the uppity tone of the longer-standing members, that there are people there like himself who wish to find one little answer on one particular setting for a particular panel, and therefore go to that forum to ask their question instead of searching the whole www, and they get told "Oh my, if you have to ask even THAT you better think twice if the Flight Simulator should be your hobby", and such replies are just nasty.

I would very much hope for this forum NOT to turn into that path!

elsaspet · Sep 25, 2007

Ahh Dan, but some of the "fine gentlemen" are against exactly that.

Instead of saying, "Gee, I'm not sure what the best camera is for what you DREAM of doing is. Please give more info."
what we get is, "Look it up. I don't have time to answer you. You are obviously too stupid to start a photography business".

Big Big Big difference.

In the first place, if people are so miffed, so offended, so BUSY they can't type an answer, why bother with typing an insulting one? I mean, what's the point?

And also good to remember is while some don't have all their ducks in a row, it's their money, and their DREAM. Just think of what type of world this would be if everyone looked down their noses. What if people just stopped helping each other? What if we all went around saying, "I figured it out for myself, and you should do the same". We would be back to the Renisance in a hurry.

And yes, people could go sweat and toil in a library like the "purists" did. But the "purists" forget that some nice photog took the time out of their day to answer all their "stupid" newbie questions in the first place.

I think most people here are good and tired of the few bullies we have. I think, and I pray, that we put an end to it soon.

abraxas · Sep 25, 2007

Being unintentionally blunt, a purposeful wiseass and enjoying sarcasm the way I do, I probably shouldn't throw stones, but ... I've read a few things that have made even me cringe. Yes, I've even said a few too- Most due to insensitivity. Some things I'm trying to get over. Takes a little time.

There are stupid questions! Got to have 'em. There's no sense in treating someone who asks any question as if they are stupid though.

On the other hand, being 'too good' to do something as simple as reading a 'sticky' before a post in a new forum, well, I feel that's just disrespect and the 'noobie' should be called on it- brought to their attention, at least in the critique sections.

There, after the initial shock, I think Motcon had the best idea with his stamps although he should have been able to move posts to the galleries. when applicable. In the long haul General and Specific Critique could have turned into something of unique value to TPF.

Most of those who sniveled and whined about it don't come around that much, and haven't participated since he left anyhow. Being able to get or develop an objective critique has suffered, and it's turning into 'just another gallery' for the most part- seeking inertia.

abraxas · Sep 25, 2007

elsaspet said:
...
I think most people here are good and tired of the few bullies we have. I think, and I pray, that we put an end to it soon.

Isn't that in itself, "Bullying?"

Battou · Sep 25, 2007

I am seeing more and more kids are not being taught how to do proper research and/or they just don't learn how to begin researching. Your standard issue search can prove a little overwhelming If you don't really know what you are looking for. Let's take the everpopular HDR for example, something I know nothing about, I'm not a digital photographer, why should I. The fastest and easiest search I can think of is to wiki-it because wiki knows all.

Problem: Wikipedia knows too much, the search brings up

* High Dose Rate, a treatment technique in radiotherapy
* High dynamic range imaging, digital imaging
* High dynamic range rendering, 3D image rendering
* Higher Degree by Research, a term for Postgraduate education
* Hot-Dry-Rock, an experimental form of geothermal energy production
* Humanitarian daily ration, an air-dropped ration for disasters
* Hevy Devy Records, a record label
* Hard disk recorder
* Homology-directed repair, a repair system in the cells of mammals to repair mutated sequences in the double strand DNA helics by using a sister homoloug DNA string to repair the damaged string with.

Well...simple Process of elimination rules out most of those and they're left with
* High dynamic range imaging, digital imaging
* High dynamic range rendering, 3D image rendering

Given the assumption that they are a true noob, the options they're looking at is reading both of the articles, google it (worrying about sifting threw all the extra information they just ruled out of Wikipedia's inventory), Or ask some one who knows.

Now I am assuming quite a bit here, but never the less the possibility remains they don't think of a Google search and it may not dawn on them that the most predominate Google result is High dynamic range imaging or High dynamic range photography.

It's far easier and lazier to punch it into a search engine than it is to register on a forum and ask for advice. A view point to take into consideration is perhaps it's not a "I don't feel like going threw the effort" factor, but a "Where should I begin?" or "What (exactly) am I looking for?" factor.

That is just my train of thought. Now, I haven't read any of the articles, so I don't know how confusing it would be to try reading up on the two remaining articles, I personally, see no reason for me to research it further, but any who.

elsaspet · Sep 25, 2007

abraxas said:
Isn't that in itself, "Bullying?"

No, I think it's a chance to bring us back to being civilized. If enough people are tired of it, these same people shouldn't be afraid to voice their reasonable thoughts.

Think of it as a time out for the bully. If he/she gets enough time outs, they will see that their nasty comments are not only a waste of time, but are also not appreciated by the forum at large. As it stands now, most people are just too afraid of the bullies. These reasonable posters had no idea how many others were tired of the bullies too, or the power of their numbers.

Reasonable people will be reasonable....even to the bullies, I hope.

elsaspet · Sep 25, 2007

abraxas said:
Being unintentionally blunt, a purposeful wiseass and enjoying sarcasm the way I do, I probably shouldn't throw stones, but ... I've read a few things that have made even me cringe. Yes, I've even said a few too- Most due to insensitivity. Some things I'm trying to get over. Takes a little time.

There are stupid questions! Got to have 'em. There's no sense in treating someone who asks any question as if they are stupid though.

On the other hand, being 'too good' to do something as simple as reading a 'sticky' before a post in a new forum, well, I feel that's just disrespect and the 'noobie' should be called on it- brought to their attention, at least in the critique sections.

There, after the initial shock, I think Motcon had the best idea with his stamps although he should have been able to move posts to the galleries. when applicable. In the long haul General and Specific Critique could have turned into something of unique value to TPF.

Most of those who sniveled and whined about it don't come around that much, and haven't participated since he left anyhow. Being able to get or develop an objective critique has suffered, and it's turning into 'just another gallery' for the most part- seeking inertia.

Hey, I've been there. I got tired of the questions too, and gave people what I thought was the appropriate bashing.
But.......then I came to my senses and remembered my own newbe days.
Motcom was a bully in the tenth degree. He was a bully that was thankfully run off by the multitudes that were sick of it.
But I think there is a bit more housekeeping to be done.....but hopefully, I would prefer some serious changes in attitude. No one wants anyone gone. We are just sick of the bullies.

I see two options for the bullies: (And this is not directed at you)

1. Stop posting your insulting posts. Put the offending poster on ignore, (the dreaded newbie) and go and share some of your own photos for a change.

2. Go find another forum that you can feel superior in. We aren't gonna put up with it here.

There aren't a whole lot of bullies here, but the ones who insist on sticking around and making everyone's day a mess, need to either get a change of attitude, or find a new place to haunt. Just my opinion.

elsaspet · Sep 25, 2007

And you have to keep in mind Battou, that half of the crap they read online can be from anyone.
Why not just let them ask the question, and take the response that they most respect from people they "know"?
That is a huge part of why this forum is here.
No one forces anyone to give a new poster a hopefully in depth and helpful response.

Chris of Arabia · Sep 25, 2007

elsaspet said:
And you have to keep in mind Battou, that half of the crap they read online can be from anyone.
Why not just let them ask the question, and take the response that they most respect from people they "know"?
That is a huge part of why this forum is here.
No one forces anyone to give a new poster a hopefully in depth and helpful response.

Which was kind of my point way back here, though I suspect the gift of eloquence deserted me at some point...

Hill202 · Sep 25, 2007

LaFoto said:
But hey. Folks.
Ask yourselves what internet forums are there for?
Why do photography forums exist?
For whom were they made?

Like this one.
A very general one.
Not directed at any special group, like pros-only, or Canon-users only, or Nikon-users only, or Olympus-users only.

Why are they there?
In order to tell new people to the hobby to best go away again and look somewhere else?

Even I once asked the much dreaded question "What is HDR". Here. On this very TPF. I am lucky I asked MY question before you were here, but I once was new, too, and HDR was new to me, as well, and I did not know the meaning of the abbreviation. And I COULD have used the SEARCH tool, or I could have googled it and got 12.000 articles with HDR mentioned once and I could and could and could --- and didn't. I simply asked HERE. Because that is what internet forums are there for.

Aren't they?

Well said! As a beginner, I find it much more interesting to come here and ask some basic questions in addition to doing some of my own research. I enjoy associating with others that share the same interests as I do. I would also think it would be fulfilling for some of you seasoned photographers to share your knowledge with us rookies.

Battou · Sep 25, 2007

elsaspet said:
And you have to keep in mind Battou, that half of the crap they read online can be from anyone.
Why not just let them ask the question, and take the response that they most respect from people they "know"?
That is a huge part of why this forum is here.
No one forces anyone to give a new poster a hopefully in depth and helpful response.

lol, I was kinda forced to cut my post a little short, so It may have been misinturprited... But yeah I do keep that in mind. I am the kind of person who thinks that a stupid question may not be as stupid as it looks. If it's asked in a serious attempt to learn some thing and/or narrow down the choices, I see no particular reason to deny an individual some information.