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socialized medicine

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Fighting between us Americans was never what the intent was......because most of us already have an opinion....lol

Be a lover not a fighter!!
 
Part of me wants to see socialized health care in the US, part of me wonders who will pay for it...

First, remove the word socialized and say one payer system. I makes it a lot easier to think straight about this question.

Second, what I said about school was just to make people realize that we already are a socialized country in more ways than one. We don't think about it because it is part of what we of as normal life but it doesn't change the fact.

Third, you will pay for it. Just like now. Some companies, like my wife's, do not ask for a payment from their employees but it makes no difference. You're still paying through a lower salary than you might get otherwise. If you look at a french paycheck (and, yes, I've lived in France so it's personal experience) you'll see a tax withholding for what they call social security (their name for medical insurance) which is a percentage of income. We'll end up doing the same here. Nothing in life is free.


Some advantages to a one payer system: you change job, you keep your same insurance, your same doctor. You don't like your doctor, pick another one. Today, I pay full price for my dentist because the guy I like is not part of my insurance... I have a doctor I love but if my wife were to change job we may not be able to see her anymore if she's not part of the new plan.

No pre-existing conditions (Well you're sick, sorry. We only insure healthy people). You coverage starts the day you start working.

Of all the system I've studied, I like the Taiwanese one best. Theirs is fairly recent and before they decided on what to do they went and studied everybody else's system to see what was good and what was bad. Their system, with everybody covered, costs them less then half of what we spend here in the US.

Not bad when you consider we have 40 (?) some million people with no insurance whatsoever and an even greater number that is under-insured. We don't talk much about the under-insured but a lot of Americans are going to have nasty surprises if they ever need to actually use their insurance.

Last but not least, we're the only country that I know of where people go bankrupt because of medical bills. Something to think about.
 
Of all the system I've studied, I like the Taiwanese one best. Theirs is fairly recent and before they decided on what to do they went and studied everybody else's system to see what was good and what was bad. Their system, with everybody covered, costs them less then half of what we spend here in the US.
How does their system work? Short summary - I don't expect you to come up with a detailed outline off the top of your head.

Last but not least, we're the only country that I know of where people go bankrupt because of medical bills. Something to think about.

I know I have a stack of medical bills... Mostly from my daughter. ****ing insurance audits. I have to prove that my kids are really my kids every six months. If you don't send in the required paperwork fast enough, they terminate your (your kid's) coverage. ****ing Bull****.


EDIT
It's not literally every six months, but it feels like it.
Once (when I acquired this stack of bills), I got the notice a week after the deadline to submit the proof that your dependants are who you say they are.
Since I missed the deadline, her coverage got cancelled. She was taken off of my plan. You can only add dependants when you have a "life changing event" (birth or marriage), or January 1st. So, she went about six months with no insurance.
 
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The problem is that the insurance companies and pumping a LOT of money into anti-health care propaganda right now. Sadly, some people eat up the propaganda for whatever reason.

But if you want the true answer: Find someone on medicare and ask if they want to willingly give it up for nothing to replace it. When they say no, you have your answer on whether these types of programs are good or bad.

Sachphotography said:
If the Government runs the health care system, they have a right to say who is and who is not a productive member of society.

shh whats that sound? omg the black helicopters are outside your window! Grab yer gun and hide!
 
Last but not least, we're the only country that I know of where people go bankrupt because of medical bills. Something to think about.

I know I have a stack of medical bills... Mostly from my daughter. ****ing insurance audits. I have to prove that my kids are really my kids every six months. If you don't send in the required paperwork fast enough, they terminate your (your kid's) coverage. ****ing Bull****.


EDIT
It's not literally every six months, but it feels like it.
Once (when I acquired this stack of bills), I got the notice a week after the deadline to submit the proof that your dependants are who you say they are.
Since I missed the deadline, her coverage got cancelled. She was taken off of my plan. You can only add dependants when you have a "life changing event" (birth or marriage), or January 1st. So, she went about six months with no insurance.

Sorry to hear about that. But unfortunately most people don't question our system until something happens to them. And your story is nothing compared to some. About a year ago I managed to send the wife of one of my wife's colleagues to France to have her premature baby with serious problems seen by a friend of mine. Their insurance refused/denied the treatment prescribed by the doctors although the kid was in such bad shape that we had to arrange for an evac-plane.

That baby was in surgery within hours of seeing my friend. If we had not jumped in, he would be dead.

So socialist/communist/marxist medicine, or whatever else some people want to call it, I'll keep on saying :thumbup:
 
well, considering most medical associations from other countries that do have socialized health care have put out public messages almost begging the US government to not socialize our health care i'd have to venture a guess and say that it's not so great.

Anybody can say anything. Can you back this up with serious links?

its all public service adds they've purchased on the tv and radio stations. not always the best things to believe but generally when those messages are generated by false groups with fact less bs they are generally either pulled completely or not viewed across a broad spectrum of networks. i've been seeing them for a few months now on just about every major network so i figure there must be some validity that the message is being delivered by who they say they are.

i know the OP is getting very little feedback that was intended but in response to O|||||||O's comment.... i personally would much rather see a system more closely modeled off the car insurance industry but not held within the states. if health care companies could sell plans across state lines you would see ever increasing quality in coverage and lowering costs.
 
Do not forget, that currently you can see any doctor or specialist you want and get any test or treatment you want. You do have to pay for it (greedy doctors wanting us to pay them for their time and expertise!), but you decide whether you see that doctor, get that test, or have that procedure.

If the government is paying the bills, then some government bean-counter hack decides if and when you see a doctor or have a procedure. And if anyone thinks there won't be any rationing, they are simply deluding themselves, put the kool-aid down!

No where in the constitution does it say anyone has a RIGHT to healthcare. This may sound harsh, but how many of those who say they cannot afford insurance have a $200/month cable bill, $100/month cell phone bill, $500 car payment? I guarantee that a lot (not all) of the people that claim they can't afford insurance are making the choice not to afford it simply because they don't want to give up extras.

And just to let you know we are currently paying about $450/month for a couple of procedures (one for the wife, one for our 4yr old daughter) we chose to have done last year that were not covered by our insurance. So we decided to pay for it out of our own pocket. We have had to sacrifice for it, but if the government was in control, we never even would have had the choice of doing them or not.

I agree there needs to be some changes, but the market should determine those changes, not the government. For example, current federal regulations force insurance companies to bundle everything into their plans. Why not let the insurance companies offer tailored plans? Why should a 24yr old single male have to have a plan that covers invetro fertilization? Because fed regulations require it. Don't you think the plans would be cheaper if we weren't paying for stuff wee don't need? My wife and i don't do drugs, so why do we have to have a policy that includes substance abuse treatment?

Besides, name any program the govenment runs that is efficient, effective and on budget. Plus, any government is paid for by the tax payers, so we are paying for it in the end.
 
As a citizen of a big bad socialist country to the north ( :greenpbl: ), I'll chime in.

I freaking love my health care system. And I do mean love it. I never need to be worried about insurance or the hospital bill when I need care. I've been taken to the ER before, and I was treated first, then kindly asked for my health care card when it was okay to do so. My home province pays all of the hospital costs, and I don't see a single bill from the hospital. (Now, I did get an ambulance bill because I'm an out-of-province student in BC, and the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (OHIP) doesn't cover out-of-province ambulance bills; but that's a hole in our system that needs fixing and not a problem with the system itself. Had I been in Ontario this wouldn't have happened.)

Here, you're treated based on how sick you are. In the US, it's much more about how much you can pay. There are also fewer preventative measures in the US, because, well they cost the patient. Here, such things like vaccinations, minor treatments or surgeries, will always be covered. It prevents the problem of someone passing-up something that will prevent a problem from getting far worse.

Another example. My father recently had a heart attack. He had to be taken to the ER at the local hospital (we're in a rural area) for immediate care, and then transported to the nearest city because that hospital had better facilities (that is, a cardiac care ward). That transport bill alone was probably pretty damn huge. He also had to have surgery overnight (yeah, he was in pretty horrible shape) while there. Then he was kept for about a week and some for observation, being moved to less intensive care when it was appropriate.

The thing is, not once did we ever have to even think of what all this cost. The province covered everything. That relief—that you don't have to worry about the bill for saving your or a loved one's life—is priceless. And it's the reason there would be rioting in the streets if our government ever dared to privatize our health care system.

And on top of all that, strangely enough, the US spends more of it's GDP on health care than Canada does of it's GDP. That just makes no sense, because it means US citizens are already paying through the nose with taxes for a system that doesn't provide the benefits it should.

well, considering most medical associations from other countries that do have socialized health care have put out public messages almost begging the US government to not socialize our health care i'd have to venture a guess and say that it's not so great.

Like cloudwalker said, anyone can say anything. I simply don't belive you, nor can I understand why governments would say that. I suspect you're being had (the distortion of this issue by the American media by and large is deplorable). As I said, most of us love our health care system.

like the actress that died from i believe it was a ski accident in Canada. everyone involved, doctors, lawyers, hospital officials, police, and even several government reps who were reportedly pro social health care all went on record to say she probably would have been alive today if the accident happened in the US.

just research case studies like that. that's what i generally do when policy change is coming about. research as many case studies as you can and make a decision based on the facts about what works best for you and what doesn't.

If you ever took a science course in post-sec, you should know a little bit about stats. Case studies are the worst, most innacurate method of research. They are small, limited, and do not prove anything because they can't be applied to the population being sampled. A single case study doesn't prove anything; a large random selection of the population does, if a strong trend with a low statistical varience can be found.

And again, anyone can say anything. Link?

EDIT: Bloody hell, I'm being ninja'd here.

If the government is paying the bills, then some government bean-counter hack decides if and when you see a doctor or have a procedure. And if anyone thinks there won't be any rationing, they are simply deluding themselves, put the kool-aid down!

Who told you that? It's not true at all. :lmao: Here in Canada, the doctors are the ones who decide if you see a specialist, and when you see them depends on the severity of your condition. Got a malignant brain tumour? You can bet the farm that you're going to be seeing a neurologist and endocrinologist, and any other specialists you may need, in very short order. Not to mention being monitored much more closely until said tumour is removed.

And just to let you know we are currently paying about $450/month for a couple of procedures (one for the wife, one for our 4yr old daughter) we chose to have done last year that were not covered by our insurance. So we decided to pay for it out of our own pocket. We have had to sacrifice for it, but if the government was in control, we never even would have had the choice of doing them or not.

What procedure? Sounds like ******** (edit again: wow! the forum's software recognizes British words too!!! :lmao: ) to me.

It's true that in a socialized heath care system purely elective surgeries won't be covered, but that's entirely fair. I mean, you don't want your taxes to pay for someone's botox injections 'cause they don't like their laugh lines, right?
 
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well, considering most medical associations from other countries that do have socialized health care have put out public messages almost begging the US government to not socialize our health care i'd have to venture a guess and say that it's not so great.

Anybody can say anything. Can you back this up with serious links?

its all public service adds they've purchased on the tv and radio stations. not always the best things to believe but generally when those messages are generated by false groups with fact less bs they are generally either pulled completely or not viewed across a broad spectrum of networks. i've been seeing them for a few months now on just about every major network so i figure there must be some validity that the message is being delivered by who they say they are.

i know the OP is getting very little feedback that was intended but in response to O|||||||O's comment.... i personally would much rather see a system more closely modeled off the car insurance industry but not held within the states. if health care companies could sell plans across state lines you would see ever increasing quality in coverage and lowering costs.

You didn't seem to have a problem believing it in your first post.

Personally I have a hard time believing that a group of doctors from some foreign country would spend their money to tell us that their system stinks. What the h*ll do they care? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless, maybe, they're getting tired of Americans coming over to get affordable care :lmao: The only people I've ever heard of doing such things are governments and it's usually called disinformation.
 
What procedure? Sounds like ******** (edit again: wow! the forum's software recognizes British words too!!! :lmao: ) to me.

It's true that in a socialized heath care system purely elective surgeries won't be covered, but that's entirely fair. I mean, you don't want your taxes to pay for someone's botox injections 'cause they don't like their laugh lines, right?

The wife's was an injection in her back to try and alleviate a herniated disc. Last ditch effort to avoid surgery. As for my daughter, she happens to have little to no enamel on her teeth and had 3 cavities that needed fixing. Since she has an aversion to anything in her mouth, filling the cavities at the dentists office would not work. So we had to use a local hospital and anesthesiologist to put her under so the dentist could fix her teeth before the cavity made it to her nerve and caused a systemic infection. Insurance would not cover the operating room or anesthesiologist because it wasn't a "medical necessity". So we struck a deal with both and had the cavities filled. We are paying that amount to get it paid off as quick as possible.

I agree about elective stuff, the problem comes in when you try to define exactly what is elective? Botox is obvious, what about breast augmentation for someone who has a masectomy? Technically, they don't need another breast to survive, so would that be considered elective?

And what about sex change operations? Some would say that should not be classified as elective, but I would say it should. Who gets to decide?
 
Generally, the legislature, after having a serious consultation with the public. Our government is actually doing a pretty fine job in consulting Canadians on how copyright law and net neutrality should work, in our interests. Something like that to improve our health care would be awesome too.

As for the cavities and such, I'm reasonably sure both those procedures would be covered, or at least partially covered, by most provincial health care systems here. And if you're in the middle class here, some extra insurance isn't uncommon (and the federal government and other employers provide supplementary health insurance as well).

Point is though, even in a government-funded system, you'd still have the choice to elect for such treatments. ;)
 
It wasn't that the cavities weren't covered, just the way they were treated. We could have had it done at the dentists and scarred her for life.

My main point is I want the choices to be decided between me and my doctor, no one else should have any say in it, especially the government. And I don't want my tax dollars paying for procedures I am opposed to.

I'm afraid I am a dying breed that firmly believes the US constitution still matters. In particular the 10th amendment which states:

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

Someone please show me where in the constitution it says the federal government has the power to control healthcare (or the auto industry, or the banking industry, or the media industry via the FCC).
 
I agree about elective stuff, the problem comes in when you try to define exactly what is elective? Botox is obvious, what about breast augmentation for someone who has a masectomy? Technically, they don't need another breast to survive, so would that be considered elective?

And what about sex change operations? Some would say that should not be classified as elective, but I would say it should. Who gets to decide?

You cannot please all of the people all of the time. Some choices won't appeal to you and some others won't appeal to me. Get over it. Just like me, I'm sure you deal with that everyday about some other subjects. That's life in a society.

Who will decide? Our elected representatives. You vote, don't you? Well, if you don't like what they do, you can always try and vote them out. You also have the choice of running for office yourself. And then you could be one of those making the decision.

About your daughter's cavities, I've never had an insurance that covered much more than $1,000 worth of care in a one year period so, if she was my daughter, I probably would have had to pay something out of pocket whether the insurance covered it or not.


My biggest problem with our current system is that compared to the rest of the western world, we have a very unhealthy population while we have some of the best medical technology. Definitely something wrong with that picture. Some of it is lifestyle but some of it is due to health insurance system. Plenty of people here do nothing in terms of preventative care or minor care because they don't want to pay their co-pay. Well, when a problem is left unattended it usually only gets worse and when we finally get around to do something about it it either cost a fortune or there's nothing to do.

I know quite a few people between the ages of 30 and 40 who don't have a single tooth of their own in their mouth. They didn't take care of their teeth, never saw a dentist (it costs money) and all of a sudden they have major problems. It's going to cost too much so they get everything pulled out and get dentures. Dentures at 30? :(


By the way, I agree with whoever said that some people have huge cell phone and tv bills and could afford to pay for insurance if they were more reasonable with the toys. But, let's be honest, our big corporation are doing everything they can to make sure we don't spend our money wisely. Anyway, this problem would be taken care of by having taxes withheld from paychecks to cover the cost of a one-payer system.
 
Anyway, this problem would be taken care of by having taxes withheld from paychecks to cover the cost of a one-payer system.

That's how some things are handled here. Worker's comp, yoink, and then your CPP (Canada Pension Plan), also a little yoink. But the CPP has it's own problems I don't care to get into.
 
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MusicaleCa.......thanks for taking the time to answer. It was nice to hear it right from someone that lives the system everyday.
 
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