Studio Portrait Photography

[JerryPH]

... enough that I delayed responding to do a lot more personal studies (that means I spent a weekend with someone that had $25,000.00 in ProPhoto equipment in their studio). It is VERY impressive, but 75% of what he did, I could do as well. The same goes in the other direction. He could do only about 75% of the things I that I could do. Time to setup is near almost the same, but he has 20 years experience, I have a LOT less.

IMHO, I will just restate that each has it's place in a STUDIO, my friend agrees 100% after seeing the results in real life.

Rather than beat my head into a wall further, I'll just bow out of this conversation, gents. I am very comfortable knowing in my head what I know now, and am not here to change anyone, just learn.

 

[Alpha]

My honest opinion is that most of the time you can get away with off-camera flashes if you try hard enough.

My honest opinion is that studio strobes are just so much better in so many ways for studio work.

 

[bigalbest]

My honest opinion is that most of the time you can get away with off-camera flashes if you try hard enough.

My honest opinion is that studio strobes are just so much better in so many ways for studio work.

I must agree, having experience with both. The speedlghts just lack the power needed.

 

[epatsellis]

The Strobist/studio flash issue really boils down to a few issues in my mind:

1. The abiility to accurately see shadows and highlights. The lack of modeling lights make it impossible to see beyond the basics, unless you shoot tethered. (the display on any digital camera is just too small to accurately see what you're doing) I used Novatron for years, for portraits and the like it's more than acceptable. My studio partner uses Photogenic monolights, and for senior portraits and the type of work he does, it's fine. Even in subdued lighting in the studio, I am thankful for the 500w modeling lights, as they are bright enough to accurately see what areas need fill cards or goboing. Part of the "quality of light" talked about by people isn't just the quantity @ power level / color temperature, but also the accuracy of modeling lights and the ability to accurately preview exactly what you will get. Both Elinchrom and Broncolor were industry leaders in this aspect of lighting (Bron in the late 60's/early 70's) decades ago, this isn't a new concept or concern.

2. Color Accuracy. I am doing strictly product work now, color accuracy is critical, and nearly every flash, from the 285 to the Photogenics and the like vary the color temp as power is adjusted. There are only a handful of pack/head systems that don't, and I found a Broncolor setup at a reasonable price. (3 1600 w/s packs and 5 heads, one a bitube for $450 from a retiring product shooter). Color accuracy is consistent regardless of power settings on the higher end flash units. While some would say it's not a big deal, for product and repro work, it's what separates the "wanna-be's" from the ones that can justify their hourly rate (and have customers glad to pay that rate).

3. Consistency of output. Portable and lower end flash units output vary, some by as much as a stop from pop to pop. The higher end units don't, the Broncolor pack/head combos I use varies less than a 1/10 of a stop (the metering limit of my flash meter) For some work, it doesn't matter, in my work, it does.

4. The above noted lack of Modifiers/insufficient power. I frequently use a 4'x6' softbox, and on occassion a 5'x12' scrim, even with 4800 w/s on tap, it's tough to get sufficient light levels to shoot at the required aperture at times.

In addtion to the above, 2 sec. recycle times, at max power level, ability to adjust power levels symmetrically/assymetrically from the shooting location,



Now, don't misunderstand, I often utilize "strobist" approaches, I have 2 Metz 60CT-1s and use them for location portraiture / environmental portraits when AC power isn't available. But as noted above, it's take a quick shot, see what needs adjusting, repeat...Use of a color checker becomes mandatory, as color accuracy isn't as good as what I get in the studio. (and what my clients expect (or deserve) from me). It all boils down to what your expectations are, and what your clients (if any) expect and will pay for.

erie

 

[JerryPH]

1. The abiility to accurately see shadows and highlights. The lack of modeling lights make it impossible to see beyond the basics

Did you know that light travels in a straight line? I do not need modeling lights to know where the light will fall. All I do (if in doubt, which is REALLY rare nowadays), is stand behind the light stand and look in the direction it is aimed. I offer you the opinion that all modeling lights are crutches for people who just got lazy and cannot or wish to not visualize what they desire.

I am thankful for the 500w modeling lights, as they are bright enough to accurately see what areas need fill cards or goboing.

If you cannot see flare or light contamination from any light source, you are simply not paying attention. Modeling light strength (1 watt or 500 watt modeling lights), mean nothing to help decide if you need a gobo or not. If you are STILL in doubt, a fast shot and a 4 second look will tell you, however, thats really reaching. I can stand where the camera will be, and know /see if I am getting contamination or not.

Part of the "quality of light" talked about by people isn't just the quantity @ power level / color temperature, but also the accuracy of modeling lights

Modeling lights are NOT used in the picture. They could be blue, green or hot pink and not make a difference. They should be turned off once you are set anyways. Basically, I say that they are used by people so that they can "see" where the light is going to fall before the flash happens. An experienced photographer needs not to do such things. If one is really in doubt, snap off a shot and look, it takes like 4 seconds total.

I am no professional, but I can walk into a room, look at a lighting setup and tell you pretty freaking accurately where the light is going to fall on your subject without flashes or modeling lights. Did I mention that light travels in straight lines? (lol)

2. Color Accuracy.

Using my Nikon speedlights, I've used from 1/128th to full power and my WB is *always* set to 5600k. My skin tones don't stray, the grey card is always close, even on a speedlight thats already delivered 250 flashes from a simple set of four AA batteries. Thats a test that I did a while back too. If there were changes, I would be the first to say that this is so. I cannot speak for all setups, but for my meagre one, it doesn't waver and is not an issue... unless I gel them.

3. Consistency of output. Portable and lower end flash units output vary, some by as much as a stop from pop to pop.

A possible advantage of the higher end studio units. Before that happens on the speedlights, though, recycle times drop severely and I know to change batteries before that (usually by that point, I am well past 400 shots). Batteries do not fire the strobe, they charge the capacitors. When the cap is full, whether from an old or new battery, it fires consistently at the the same intensity... it just may take longer to charge up as the battery weakens.

However, by the time that happens, I've taken 400+ pics. So, not only is it time to replace the batteries, its usually time to swap CF cards and likely go for lunch too (lol). In effect, I can charge my batteries faster than I can drain them. Also, at 1/2 power, I am looking at a maximum 2 second recycle times (~ 3-4 seconds at full power) with the AA batteries, less if I use external power packs. At 1/8th-1/4th power I can pop off 15-20 shots at 4 FPS before it starts to become a factor to consider. No matter what, at these levels, I cannot burn out my flash heads using ordinary AA batteries. At 1/8th power and lower, I have no mental considerations for battery life or recycle times, its near instantaneous and more than what I will require from any given session.

Now, I *could* easily burn out my strobes if I used an external Quantaray battery pack (guaranteed continual 1 second recycle times at anywhere from 1/2 to full power for 800 shots... thats what that battery pack can do), but thats just nuts. I do not know anyone that needs that many cycles in that short a time. I can also guarantee that your speedlight is toast after that as well.

4. The above noted lack of Modifiers/insufficient power.

There exists no modifier that doesn't already exist for a speedlight or that cannot be easily made. Scrims, gobos, snoots, gridspots, softboxes, umbrellas, gels... you name it, someone can or has already done it.

Lack of power? The one HUGE advantage for the big guns! I will ceded that there are no existing speedlights that can match the output 1 for 1 on even a mid-range 500Ws studio strobe. However, there is nothing stopping me from putting 4 umbrellas in a shoot-through scenario (2 up, 2 down, very close and tight) and get the same final results as a single ProPhoto 500Ws setup in a $400 4 X 6 foot softbox. Been there and done that. Only difference, the 500Ws softbox can be 10-15 feet away, and I have to be 5-6 feet away. Thats no biggie for most.

I will also counter that with 500ws of lights in a 10 X 20 foot room dialed down to it's lowest power settings, you still cannot get the light strength low enough without ND filters, massive diffusion or a really high F-stop to light the scene on 2 different planes (ie: first plane being between the front strobes to the subject and 2nd plane being from the subject to a backdrop). With the tiny strobes on the other hand, I can open my camera's lens to F/1.4, blur the heck and/or blacken out ANY ambient light out of the picture within a total physical depth of 4 feet from camera lens to backdrop and still get perfect exposure on my subject, and I'll be working at 1/8th to 1/32nd of my maximum strobe power on the strobes. To do the same result with a 500WS studio unit dropped to it's lowest setting of 100-125Ws, you would need 50 or more feet to reproduce a similar result or smaller apertures, massive filtering or diffusion, not to mention a really nice 200mm lens at that distance!

I frequently use a 4'x6' softbox, and on occassion a 5'x12' scrim, even with 4800 w/s on tap, it's tough to get sufficient light levels to shoot at the required aperture at times.

Again, the fact that speedlights are weaker? No contest and no argument. It is also a fact that the average person on this forum (let's expand that to 90% of ALL photographers that use flash), will never need to light a 20 X 40 foot room at F/11. However, there will always be someone that does, and for them, that justifies their needs perfectly.

In addtion to the above, 2 sec. recycle times, at max power level

2 second recycle times are actually quite slow. As mentioned, if I wanted to use 1/2 to full power, the external battery packs are good for 800 flashes with 1 second recycle times... but you can then go and toss that $300 flash into the garbage... lol.

Leave that speedlight at 1/2 power and you can go all day at 5-6 continual flashes with a 10-15 second break in between. Do you really need that, though? The average person... of course not. The pro? Even that is likely too slow for them sometimes.

ability to adjust power levels symmetrically/assymetrically from the shooting location,

Adjusting settings manually is no biggie honestly, but being able to do it while from behind the camera is an awesome choice to have. On a smaller scale, I can do this using Nikon's CLS and can tell you, it IS convenient, but its not mandatory nor what I would call a deal breaker. Also, to be able to do this in the studio is definitely going to cost you some pretty coin, as these units do not come cheap. For $1000 to $3000 savings, I'll walk the 10 feet across to the light to change settings. Now, if your strobe is 25 feet in the air... thats another story!

...it's take a quick shot, see what needs adjusting, repeat...

That would be the same with strobes or studio flashes. However size of the subject, room and distance makes the big advantage that a full-out studio setup offers. You pay big bucks for that big light. In some cases, absolutely nothing else will do, I know that.

It all boils down to what your expectations are, and what your clients (if any) expect and will pay for.

You are 100% right on that. They are the ones that will decide if you get paid or not. I definitely understand that if you don't have the equipment needed to get the job done, it costs you big time. The thing is, very few people need that level that we are discussing.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

 

[epatsellis]

Did you know that light travels in a straight line? I do not need modeling lights to know where the light will fall. All I do (if in doubt, which is REALLY rare nowadays), is stand behind the light stand and look in the direction it is aimed. I offer you the opinion that all modeling lights are crutches for people who just got lazy and cannot or wish to not visualize what they desire.


If you cannot see flare or light contamination from any light source, you are simply not paying attention. Modeling light strength (1 watt or 500 watt modeling lights), mean nothing to help decide if you need a gobo or not. If you are STILL in doubt, a fast shot and a 4 second look will tell you, however, thats really reaching. I can stand where the camera will be, and know /see if I am getting contamination or not.

Visualization and artistic merit aside, when shooting for reproduction, you have a max contrast ratio of 1:5. Can you, with your calibrated eye insure me that I will get what I need? I can't (and I've been shooting in studio for 25 years, I can say it will be pretty close, but not with absolute certainty, not at 2+ hours to dress a set, you have to at least have the image of you know what you're doing in the customers eyes)

Modeling lights are NOT used in the picture. They could be blue, green or hot pink and not make a difference. They should be turned off once you are set anyways. Basically, I say that they are used by people so that they can "see" where the light is going to fall before the flash happens. An experienced photographer needs not to do such things. If one is really in doubt, snap off a shot and look, it takes like 4 seconds total.

I am no professional, but I can walk into a room, look at a lighting setup and tell you pretty freaking accurately where the light is going to fall on your subject without flashes or modeling lights. Did I mention that light travels in straight lines? (lol)

Yup, straight line, absolutely correct. Now take a 4' softbox, light a 12" wide subject, and where will your shadow break, does it match what the art director wants in strength and softness? Can you visualize it exactly? The work that I do is about as far away technically and aesthetically from portrait work, and I don't dispute that. How often in portrait work will the client give you a mylar overlay (blue line) to match position, angle, shadow break, etc.? Or tell you that 1:5 is the a bsolute max contrast ratio the prepress house wants? I've never had one portrait client ever do that. It's pretty much standard in higher end product work. (and why for those customers I shoot with the Sinar P and a scan back) Most photographers would be amazed at what happens on a product shoot, and if you are ever in the area, get a hold of me, I shoot at least once a week right now, you may be in for a shock.

Using my Nikon speedlights, I've used from 1/128th to full power and my WB is *always* set to 5600k. My skin tones don't stray, the grey card is always close, even on a speedlight thats already delivered 250 flashes from a simple set of four AA batteries. Thats a test that I did a while back too. If there were changes, I would be the first to say that this is so. I cannot speak for all setups, but for my meagre one, it doesn't waver and is not an issue... unless I gel them.


A possible advantage of the higher end studio units. Before that happens on the speedlights, though, recycle times drop severely and I know to change batteries before that (usually by that point, I am well past 400 shots). Batteries do not fire the strobe, they charge the capacitors. When the cap is full, whether from an old or new battery, it fires consistently at the the same intensity... it just may take longer to charge up as the battery weakens.

However, by the time that happens, I've taken 400+ pics. So, not only is it time to replace the batteries, its usually time to swap CF cards and likely go for lunch too (lol). In effect, I can charge my batteries faster than I can drain them. Also, at 1/2 power, I am looking at a maximum 2 second recycle times (~ 3-4 seconds at full power) with the AA batteries, less if I use external power packs. At 1/8th-1/4th power I can pop off 15-20 shots at 4 FPS before it starts to become a factor to consider. No matter what, at these levels, I cannot burn out my flash heads using ordinary AA batteries. At 1/8th power and lower, I have no mental considerations for battery life or recycle times, its near instantaneous and more than what I will require from any given session.

Now, I *could* easily burn out my strobes if I used an external Quantaray battery pack (guaranteed continual 1 second recycle times at anywhere from 1/2 to full power for 800 shots... thats what that battery pack can do), but thats just nuts. I do not know anyone that needs that many cycles in that short a time. I can also guarantee that your speedlight is toast after that as well.

Gray card being close doesn't mean it's exact, and that's my point. We're talking exact color repro, consistently. Once again, apples and cows, that's how far apart we are, in terms of color accuracy.

There exists no modifier that doesn't already exist for a speedlight or that cannot be easily made. Scrims, gobos, snoots, gridspots, softboxes, umbrellas, gels... you name it, someone can or has already done it.

Lack of power? The one HUGE advantage for the big guns! I will ceded that there are no existing speedlights that can match the output 1 for 1 on even a mid-range 500Ws studio strobe. However, there is nothing stopping me from putting 4 umbrellas in a shoot-through scenario (2 up, 2 down, very close and tight) and get the same final results as a single ProPhoto 500Ws setup in a $400 4 X 6 foot softbox. Been there and done that. Only difference, the 500Ws softbox can be 10-15 feet away, and I have to be 5-6 feet away. Thats no biggie for most.

I will also counter that with 500ws of lights in a 10 X 20 foot room dialed down to it's lowest power settings, you still cannot get the light strength low enough without ND filters, massive diffusion or a really high F-stop to light the scene on 2 different planes (ie: first plane being between the front strobes to the subject and 2nd plane being from the subject to a backdrop). With the tiny strobes on the other hand, I can open my camera's lens to F/1.4, blur the heck and/or blacken out ANY ambient light out of the picture within a total physical depth of 4 feet from camera lens to backdrop and still get perfect exposure on my subject, and I'll be working at 1/8th to 1/32nd of my maximum strobe power on the strobes. To do the same result with a 500WS studio unit dropped to it's lowest setting of 100-125Ws, you would need 50 or more feet to reproduce a similar result or smaller apertures, massive filtering or diffusion, not to mention a really nice 200mm lens at that distance!

Not neccesarily, I've often used my 1600 w/s pack dialed to 200 w/s and connect 3 heads, 2 in the closet (with modeling lights off), one lighting the subject. gives me ~86 w/s, obviously the variations (and power levels) are endless.

Again, the fact that speedlights are weaker? No contest and no argument. It is also a fact that the average person on this forum (let's expand that to 90% of ALL photographers that use flash), will never need to light a 20 X 40 foot room at F/11. However, there will always be someone that does, and for them, that justifies their needs perfectly.


2 second recycle times are actually quite slow. As mentioned, if I wanted to use 1/2 to full power, the external battery packs are good for 800 flashes with 1 second recycle times... but you can then go and toss that $300 flash into the garbage... lol.

Leave that speedlight at 1/2 power and you can go all day at 5-6 continual flashes with a 10-15 second break in between. Do you really need that, though? The average person... of course not. The pro? Even that is likely too slow for them sometimes.

However lighting, say a lawn tractor with a 4x6 softbox approx 3' away, fill cards and gobos, and you need to use f16 to hold DOF, typical in the work I do.

Adjusting settings manually is no biggie honestly, but being able to do it while from behind the camera is an awesome choice to have. On a smaller scale, I can do this using Nikon's CLS and can tell you, it IS convenient, but its not mandatory nor what I would call a deal breaker. Also, to be able to do this in the studio is definitely going to cost you some pretty coin, as these units do not come cheap. For $1000 to $3000 savings, I'll walk the 10 feet across to the light to change settings. Now, if your strobe is 25 feet in the air... thats another story!

My "standard" product work (about 85% of what I shoot) is a large softbox, 8' in the air (or higher) on a 10' long boom. At the moment, I'm in the middle of shooting approx 250 images for a major catalog by the equipment manufacturer, the budget (which we'll easily be well under at this point) extends deep into 6 figure territory. They want what they want, and if we can't do it somebody else can (they previously used a studio in Detroit, some 500 miles away, and paid about 3x our day rate, as well as travel expenses).

 

[JerryPH]

epasellis, awsome convo... I enjoyed exchanging.
I prefer apples to oranges, though... cows are a little tough. I think that our differences come from the fact that we are really from opposite sides of the user spectrum. One being an amateur home user, the other a professional with much different needs.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

 

[Alpha]

Did you know that light travels in a straight line? I do not need modeling lights to know where the light will fall. All I do (if in doubt, which is REALLY rare nowadays), is stand behind the light stand and look in the direction it is aimed. I offer you the opinion that all modeling lights are crutches for people who just got lazy and cannot or wish to not visualize what they desire.


If you cannot see flare or light contamination from any light source, you are simply not paying attention. Modeling light strength (1 watt or 500 watt modeling lights), mean nothing to help decide if you need a gobo or not. If you are STILL in doubt, a fast shot and a 4 second look will tell you, however, thats really reaching. I can stand where the camera will be, and know /see if I am getting contamination or not.


Modeling lights are NOT used in the picture. They could be blue, green or hot pink and not make a difference. They should be turned off once you are set anyways. Basically, I say that they are used by people so that they can "see" where the light is going to fall before the flash happens. An experienced photographer needs not to do such things. If one is really in doubt, snap off a shot and look, it takes like 4 seconds total.

I am no professional, but I can walk into a room, look at a lighting setup and tell you pretty freaking accurately where the light is going to fall on your subject without flashes or modeling lights. Did I mention that light travels in straight lines? (lol)

Simply put. You're completely, totally, absolutely, indubitably wrong.

1) Yes, it most certainly is useful to see where your light is falling so that you can adjust modifier orientation. This is nearly always the case with rectangular soft boxes, and god forbid you want to use an adjustable reflector you are completely SOL without them.
2) FOCUSING. I don't know what kind of professionals you think you're hanging out with but anyone who's routinely autofocusing in a studio is positively stupid. Available light is needed for good focusing, especially with small viewfinders or medium/large format.
3) Good modeling lights can easily tell you where you need fill.

I'm sorry Jerry. I like you a lot but this time you're talking out your ass. You just said a couple posts ago that you didn't even know the reasons that studio strobes could be better than off-camera flashes. What qualifies you to make these pronouncements? After reading the above I didn't even bother finishing the whole post.

 

[Zansho]

Personally, for me, understanding how lighting and your camera works is of paramount importance before even considering what to get for studio strobes. Once you understand the limitations of your equipment, you will understand more about what you need to purchase to address those limitations.

I, for one, I have a variety of lighting equipment, which I value even more than some of my lenses. I have a set of speedotron black line - fairly old, but they work quite well, fired with my pocketwizards - which I use in the studio, for a variety of things. The biggest positive of these is the fact I can attach my modifiers - things like grid spots, softboxes, and strip boxes with relative ease, and I can adapt them to pretty much ANY lighting I want. I can dial down power very easily, and and controlling them is pretty much effortless.

Outdoors, and on location, I'm using my Norman 200B's. They're powerful little suckers, and I can shoot them in a variety of ways - with a silver reflector dish, snoot, umbrellas, and with some cobbling, a softbox. They have enough juice for about 200 full power flashes, which is plenty for me on location, and I have extra batteries if needed. They're not exactly the same as my Speedotrons in terms of power and control, but they're a heck of a sight better than my 580 EX II, and the only thing that can compare are my Quantum QFlash.

I have to agree with Alpha though - if you asked me which lighting I wanted to use for studio work, I'd probably point at my Speedotrons. Second in line would be my Normans, and last, my 580 EX II. All of my lighting equipment can be triggered with the appropriate cords and my pocketwizards, so honestly, it's nice to have that flexibility.

Lighting, to me, is probably the most valuable tool a photographer can have, aside from his lenses and camera. With good lighting, pretty much ANY camera and lens can take a great photo - but with crappy lighting, all the super "ZOMGUBER!" gear in the world won't save your collective behind.

One thing I disagree with Alpha though - you don't NEED a "professional" looking body to take "professional" looking results. I've shot with a Rebel XTI, and produced some fine prints out of that camera.

 

[Zansho]

I'm sorry, Jerry, but he's right. I didn't see the post you just did, otherwise I'd have refuted what you posted.

Simply put, while the strobist approach is amazing, and it has taken some people to new levels, it is NOT a substitute for a good set of quality studio strobes. No way, no how, modeling lights or no.

Simply put. You're completely, totally, absolutely, indubitably wrong.

1) Yes, it most certainly is useful to see where your light is falling so that you can adjust modifier orientation. This is nearly always the case with rectangular soft boxes, and god forbid you want to use an adjustable reflector you are completely SOL without them.
2) FOCUSING. I don't know what kind of professionals you think you're hanging out with but anyone who's routinely autofocusing in a studio is positively stupid. Available light is needed for good focusing, especially with small viewfinders or medium/large format.
3) Good modeling lights can easily tell you where you need fill.

I'm sorry Jerry. I like you a lot but this time you're talking out your ass. You just said a couple posts ago that you didn't even know the reasons that studio strobes could be better than off-camera flashes. What qualifies you to make these pronouncements? After reading the above I didn't even bother finishing the whole post.

 

[epatsellis]

One thing I did leave out (since we are talking strobes) is that I also use some custom built HMI lighting, with a scan back on the 4x5 sinar. The HMI's uses the same light modifier attachments as my Broncolors. The 3+ minute scan times make shoot and look very, very impractical as well for this application. If you can't see what you have before you capture, you're in for a long day or SOL.

 

[Zansho]

I'll give you one thing though, Jerry - a professional and a hobbyist have two completely different needs. Strobist style might work for you, and stay within your budget.

However, for professionals that do this on a daily basis, strobist just simply doesn't cut it. We have to spend (with the client paying) thousands of dollars on lighting equipment in order to achieve what is expected of us from our clients. We're counted on, to produce consistent quality, day in and day out. I'd rather rely on my Speedotrons for that.

 

[epatsellis]

Zansho,
If you ever make it to Central IL from Austin, you're welcome to spend some time with the Broncolors, even with the older packs and heads, the difference isn't subtle. I keep my Novatrons for farting around at home, where consistency isn't critical (ebay photos, etc.) but sold the Speedo Blackline stuff shortly after getting the Broncolor. The Speedo is good, really good, but there's a reason why Bron is the Bentley of lighting equipment.

 

[Zansho]

I've heard a lot of good things about Broncolor, but the price puts me off . I've spent over 2k for my Speedotron set (2400 pack, 3 heads) used, and I still had to buy my modifiers.

I'm pretty happy with my speedotron right now, and they're pretty darn good in terms of their lighting output and color consistency. To be honest, I've been eyeballing some Profoto lights, but I'll wait a bit before I buy my next set.