Studio Portrait Photography

[Alpha]

I seriously learned so much in 15 minutes reading this thread.....

Well If you were reading Jerry's posts I'm afraid you probably didn't learn much

 

[Bifurcator]

Hey Jerry,

Really, no kidding... No one uses AF in a MF/LF studio. Honest! It's all done by eye and if it's extremely critical a loupe is placed on the ground glass or I guess LCD panel these days if the VF loupe is inadequate or something - though in most digital studios today the image is transfered to a nearby computer in near realtime as each shot is taken and critical focus can be accomplished there. If there's someone using AF in a studio I guess we could call it personal preference but I venture to guess most other studio guys would call it incompetence.

35mm format dSLR stuff (in the same studio) is not dissimilar. Mostly it's all manual focus even fashion stuff where the model is moving around allot. This is not excluding fashion shows either. Most guys will set focus on at least two cameras before the girls walk out and wait for them to enter the frame of the 1st cam. Snap, snap, move back a little snap snap, move back to the marker (some guys even put white tape on the floor) grab cam 2, snap snap, grab cam 1, wait for the next model, repeat.

Paparazzi even go so far as to place the lens in MF and tape down the focus ring so that it's no longer focusable. Maybe 80 or 90% of paparazzi do it this way. They know the distance, they run up, grab the shots as many as they can, move with the model keeping the same distance and snapping. When the distance is no longer possible to maintain the shoot is over.

AF, tracking, and etc. is mostly just for us hobbyists.

 

[mr_baseball_08]

Ok. Here are some reasons:
1) Loss of modifiers.
-You basically lose all ability to use reflectors - Not true, Joe Mcnally uses them all the time.
-Almost no studio modifiers are built with off-camera flash use in mind, which is why they have to be specially adapted.
-Large and double-baffled modifiers overwhelm their power capabilities and become mostly useless.
-Complete loss of specialized modifiers, including but not limited to: adjustable reflectors, parabolic umbrellas, and fresnel spots.
2) Huge power sacrifice.
-No overpowering of the sun on location - Not true, http://www.joemcnally.com/blog/2008/05/19/david-of-the-desert/
-Inability to use large modifiers, especially gridded - Not true, I've seen large gridded softboxes powered by strobes
-Limited use of scrims
-Inability to light large areas or full-length subjects - Not true again, see Joe Mcnally or go through the strobist pool
-More lights needed to provide the same power or light the same area - I will agree with this, but this is a matter of WS and is fairly obvious
3) Loss of configuration possibilities
-More triggers required than pack setups
-Inability to control multiple lights from a central location - Umm, no, pocket wizards, anyone?
4) Batteries
-Inability to use a battery inverter on location
-Constant purchasing of smaller batteries - Rechargeables. Buy a pack of 24 and you're good for a whole weekend of shooting.
-Few or no battery pack capabilities
5) Recycling
-Slower recycle time at the same power output - Agreed
-Recycle time slows as batteries lose power - Eh, yeah, to a point (i.e. batteries are almost dead)
-No fan cooling (meltdown or burnout risk) - Only seen one burn out SB-800 in my time
6) Time
-Running around to adjust settings on each flash - Not really, Commander mode, man.
-Slower setup time because of extra brackets and adapters needed. - Nope, disagreed.

It seems as if you use a lot of relative terms, like better, good, slower, faster, etc.. These don't hold up because they have no value. Numbers speak the truth.

A lot of your reasons are also based off your opinion, and no factual evidence. Just because you think something doesn't make it true.

I think we can all agree you're very knowledgeable when it comes to photography, but I'm afraid your inability to accept others opinions will keep you from making friends here.

 

[Zansho]

Thank you! I do want to reinforce that before AF came along, we were doing just fine shooting in MF back in the days of film. I'm 32 (and yes, i'm old enough to remember film), and I had to do everything manually with a 4x5 view camera and one of my professor's 8x10 View camera.

Manual focus is quite easy if you know what you're focusing on, and critical distance. I promise you, the shot will be in focus if you know your focal length, f-stop, and distance, and adjust accordingly.

The only time I autofocus is when I'm outside of the studio shooting a wedding or just want to be lazy and shoot instead of always thinking. There ARE days when I just feel like snapping a shot instead of going a full professional route, lol.

I still have my old Mamiya 645 ProTL that I got back in the day, and that was total manual - everything. I miss it, and I wish I could afford a digital mamiya, it would go nicely with the lenses I currently have for it. Only time I shoot it is when I want to go bigger than my current 5D and scan.

Hey Jerry,

Really, no kidding... No one uses AF in a MF/LF studio. Honest! It's all done by eye and if it's extremely critical a loupe is placed on the ground glass or I guess LCD panel these days if the VF loupe is inadequate or something - though in most digital studios today the image if transfered to a nearby computer as each shot is taken critical focus can be accomplished there. If there's someone using AF in a studio I guess we could call it personal preference but I venture to guess most other studio guys would call it incompetence.

35mm format dSLR stuff (in the same studio) is not dissimilar. Mostly it's all manual focus even fashion stuff where the model is moving around allot. This is not excluding fashion shows either. Most guys will set focus on at least two cameras before the girls walk out and wait for them to enter the frame of the 1st cam. Snap, snap, move back a little snap snap, move back to the marker (some guys even put white tape on the floor) grab cam 2, snap snap, grab cam 1, wait for the next model, repeat.

Paparazzi even go so far as to place the lens in MF and tape down the focus ring so that it's no longer focusable. Maybe 80 or 90% of paparazzi do it this way. They know the distance, they run up, grab the shots as many as they can, move with the model keeping the same distance and snapping. When the distance is no longer possible to maintain the shoot is over.

AF, tracking, and etc. is mostly just for us hobbyists.

 

[Bifurcator]

I think we can all agree you're very knowledgeable when it comes to photography, but I'm afraid your inability to accept others opinions will keep you from making friends here.

Nah, being opinionated when actually he's mostly right, won't stop him from having friends here. It's the norm in these forums anyway. He even tries to be cute, funny, or polite most of the time. It's all guuud!

The only time I autofocus is when I'm outside of the studio shooting a wedding or just want to be lazy and shoot instead of always thinking. There ARE days when I just feel like snapping a shot instead of going a full professional route, lol.

Yeah, and these thing do also have their uses in some pro gigs though. It's not totally exclusive. Like, I think high end tracking systems on some dSLRs are just totally awesome for wildlife shots and especially birds in flight. These tracking systems are even maturing to the point where most newer dSLR form-factor P&S cameras can accomplish the same things as the >$2K bodies.

When AF first came out I can remember lots and lots of laughter from the pro sector though - and still today actually. Even in recent times I can't ever remember being on a set (movie, video, or still) where AF was being used. In fact a common joke is to accuse the cameraman (1AC "Focus Puller") of using AF.

 

[toofpaste]

Well If you were reading Jerry's posts I'm afraid you probably didn't learn much

I was referring to you and some other members.

 

[Bifurcator]

And I think Jerry's info was good too actually. It's just not "pro studio" info is all! I like Jerry, he's a good member here! Lots of useful tips!

 

[epatsellis]

Hey Jerry,

Really, no kidding... No one uses AF in a MF/LF studio. Honest! It's all done by eye and if it's extremely critical a loupe is placed on the ground glass or I guess LCD panel these days if the VF loupe is inadequate or something - though in most digital studios today the image is transfered to a nearby computer in near realtime as each shot is taken and critical focus can be accomplished there. If there's someone using AF in a studio I guess we could call it personal preference but I venture to guess most other studio guys would call it incompetence.

35mm format dSLR stuff (in the same studio) is not dissimilar. Mostly it's all manual focus even fashion stuff where the model is moving around allot. This is not excluding fashion shows either. Most guys will set focus on at least two cameras before the girls walk out and wait for them to enter the frame of the 1st cam. Snap, snap, move back a little snap snap, move back to the marker (some guys even put white tape on the floor) grab cam 2, snap snap, grab cam 1, wait for the next model, repeat.

Paparazzi even go so far as to place the lens in MF and tape down the focus ring so that it's no longer focusable. Maybe 80 or 90% of paparazzi do it this way. They know the distance, they run up, grab the shots as many as they can, move with the model keeping the same distance and snapping. When the distance is no longer possible to maintain the shoot is over.

AF, tracking, and etc. is mostly just for us hobbyists.

believe me, if I'm getting paid for it, focus (where it's intended) is critical and on any film work, the loupe is always around my neck and used constantly. (along with my spotmeter for checking lighting ratios, one of the advantages of the "un-neccesary" modeling lights, good ones actually let you measure such things.) 99.99% of any Dslr work I do in studio is on a tripod or studio stand and manually focused as well.

 

[Alpha]

Ok. Here are some reasons:
1) Loss of modifiers.
-You basically lose all ability to use reflectors - Not true, Joe Mcnally uses them all the time.

Not without building or purchasing special brackets. That aside, studio flashes are not directional. The flash tube fires in every direction (except backwards), which is what makes reflectors work the way they do. Perhaps you're thinking of hand-held reflectors. I'm talking about the kind that fits around the flash tube.

-No overpowering of the sun on location - Not true, http://www.joemcnally.com/blog/2008/...of-the-desert/

LOL that is not overpowering the sun. That's fill flash at dusk. Overpowering is when you shoot in broad daylight with strobes so powerful that the background appears dark. All that "override" **** aside, you shouldn't have to shoot at 1/8000. You couldn't get me to shoot at 1/8000 if you asked me to photograph the testicles on a hummingbird. And how many speelights did he have to use? I can do it with a single strobe.

-Inability to use large modifiers, especially gridded - Not true, I've seen large gridded softboxes powered by strobes

Again, not without special rigging.

-Inability to light large areas or full-length subjects - Not true again, see Joe Mcnally or go through the strobist pool

The fact of the matter is that something like a speedlight does not have the power output needed when firing into a very large umbrella or softbox (especially double-baffled) to accomplish this. At the very least, not nearly as well.

-Inability to control multiple lights from a central location - Umm, no, pocket wizards, anyone?

Knowing what you're talking about, anyone? Triggers only control when the flash fires, not its output.

-Constant purchasing of smaller batteries - Rechargeables. Buy a pack of 24 and you're good for a whole weekend of shooting.

Most strobists cite ultimate portability as the big plus. If weight is an issue, you use non-rechargeable lithium batteries.

-Recycle time slows as batteries lose power - Eh, yeah, to a point (i.e. batteries are almost dead)

Probably because the measly things draw something like 80w/s. On more powerful off-camera flashes this is a real issue.

-No fan cooling (meltdown or burnout risk) - Only seen one burn out SB-800 in my time

Fair, but it happens. When it doesn't happen it's only because the things aren't very powerful.

-Running around to adjust settings on each flash - Not really, Commander mode, man.

Generally you're not shooting with one one the camera, so there's still running around to be done.

-Slower setup time because of extra brackets and adapters needed. - Nope, disagreed.

If you insist.

It seems as if you use a lot of relative terms, like better, good, slower, faster, etc.. These don't hold up because they have no value. Numbers speak the truth.

LOL. All the numbers are on my side.

A lot of your reasons are also based off your opinion, and no factual evidence. Just because you think something doesn't make it true.

My opinion based on using both setups professionally, and countless other pros who agree.

I think we can all agree you're very knowledgeable when it comes to photography, but I'm afraid your inability to accept others opinions will keep you from making friends here.

As the other pros here have noted. I'm mostly correct (not entirely sure what they disagree on). It's you, Jerry, and the rest of the strobist crop who are fighting the uphill battle. I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: think it possible that you may be mistaken.

 

[toofpaste]

We should have a victory dance smiley

 

[Alpha]

Toofpaste is my hype man.

 

[toofpaste]

You should run for presidente.

 

[mr_baseball_08]

LOL. All the numbers are on my side.

What numbers are on your side? The only numbers I've seen in this thread are WS numbers. Just because you say the numbers are on your side, doesn't mean they are?

My opinion based on using both setups professionally, and countless other pros who agree.

I don't see any of these countless pro chiming in here. Apparently you're the only pro who frequents this forum. And FYI, countless other pro's out there use strobes, so that nullifies your argument.

As the other pros here have noted. I'm mostly correct (not entirely sure what they disagree on). It's you, Jerry, and the rest of the strobist crop who are fighting the uphill battle. I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ: think it possible that you may be mistaken.

As I said before, I don't see too many pro's around these parts? And since we're on the subject, what makes a pro? Are you a pro? If so, I declare myself a pro too, so my opinion counts as much as yours.

Why do you have a chip on your shoulder with the "strobist crop" as you call them? If you're work is so awesome with the lights you use, why do you give a damn what we're doing?

 

[epatsellis]

Where to even start???

Joe McNally uses reflectors, true, but not the kind we are talking about, these fit the flash head, and allow you to vary the angular coverage to suit your desired need, not what most of us old timers would call a fill card.

Overpowering of sun on location-not gonna happen without enough light, and except at close distances, any of the small strobes just won't cut it. (Simple numbers really, for a typical 1/250 flash sync, you need a flash that will deliver f22 or better(ISO 250, F16 for ISO 100 or so), to get your daylight down 1 stop, do the math, tell me how many feet before a SB800 runs out of steam. I have no clue as I don't (nor plan on buying ) one You'll also notice in Joe McNally's equipment list there's quite an array of Elihchrom as well, each tool has it's uses)

Large gridded softboxes powered by strobes are an exercise in frustration, at all but the highest ISO settings. Once again simple math, with 2-3 stops lost by diffusors, and attempting to spread a miniscule amount of light over a large area, you'll be lucky to get f 5.6 2' away with ISO 160. And you lose the greatest advantage to a properly built soft box, evenness of light from corner to corner, I've yet to see one used with a hotshoe flash that isn't a hot spot in the center and tapering a few stops off to the edges. You could just use a scrim if that's the effect you really want and save a few stops of light.

inability to light large areas/more lights- you are correct, it just comes down to how much light you can generate, period.

Pocket wizards are great, but setting power levels with them isn't one of their strengths, if it can even be done. ( I use Broncolor IRS triggers)

Rechargeable batteries are great, but once again we're into pain/gain ratios lots of pain, and things can be done much easier with either an AC supply or pack/heads.

Adjusting settings via commander mode...well, that may be ok, but where do I find it on my 8x10 Sinars menu? (then again, where do I find the menu???) (I'm guessing that this is one of those Nikon things that they've been using, wouldn't know, as the only digital I use is a Fuji S2 for proofs)

In all honesty, by time you buy pocket wizards, stand brackets, etc. you can buy a mid level pack and heads, that fit comfortably in a small case and give you far more control than you're likely to get otherwise. Most of the "strobist" camp have years of working with big pack/head systems, and already have a lot of the base knowledge, something most (99% or more, by my guess) of the people on this board don't have. If all you ever shoot with a Dslr, you can probably get away with it, but on one shoot, I may be using a Dslr, a MF digital back, MF film, LF digital back and LF film, and the only solution that will reliably work is a pack/head or monolights (yuck!) solution.

As far as who is/isn't a pro, I use the simple "does this person derive a major part of their income from photography?" test. In my case, I do, and have for a quarter century or so. And as I stated, occaisionally I've used my Metz 60CT1s on stands and umbrella's or as a fill from time to time, especially where there isn't power available.

 

[Alpha]

Why do you have a chip on your shoulder with the "strobist crop" as you call them? If you're work is so awesome with the lights you use, why do you give a damn what we're doing?

I don't give a damn what anyone else does. But I do give a damn about curbing the mis-information trend on the web.

On that note, I'm out.