The death of C&C

[AlanKlein]

I enjoy getting a "nice shot" if not a longer critique. I admit I post my shots out of pride, but hopefully not too prideful. It's easy to get your mom to tell you you're Michelangelo. Getting similar respect from other photographers is a bit harder. I try to give that back as I know that it takes courage to post a shot and hard work too. You wouldn't post it if you didn't feel it meant something to you. So thanking someone for posting it and giving him some measure of respect is worthwhile. I think getting no response at all is worse than anything. You wonder if anyone actually looked.

Having said that, giving good critique is very important. I'd like to know what people think. I may have missed stuff, probably often, because it's mine. If you look at someone's portraiture, and tell them the eyes would look brighter and more alive if they added catch lights, that's a positive learning experience for them. The art of critiquing is to be positive and gentle, something I find hard to do if I get carried away. Criticizing someone nicely is hard. Be nice when you do it.

 

[K9Kirk]

If I tell a person that they need to do a particular thing to a picture I give them the benefit of the doubt that they heard me the first time so I personally don't see the point in telling them, the same person, the same thing over and over with almost each and every picture they post to the point that I lose sight of my original intent and become an aggravation rather than an inspiration. Maybe they simply want to do things their way and that's ok. How else do artists become famous? Bottom line, if a person doesn't want to do what you suggest just leave them alone but that's not to say you shouldn't be allowed to critique. Just don't harass with it.

 

[Original katomi]

Ok these were staged just for fun to post here.. pic 1 bit out of focus, to much reflection off bottle and so on
Pic 2 better but will not win any points in comp. it’s composed all wrong. Cc was not asked for or given as others could see it was not required or relevant.
In the sense of fair play and this post if peeps want to cc these images, in the interests of fun and helping others,
Then please feel free.
Taken on old I pad air..something iso not known f stop not known second images zoomed by finger pinch on screen
Light..daylight via big window

 

[Space Face]

God, I ain't seen a dimple bottle of whisky for ages.

 

[Photo Lady]

I enjoy getting a "nice shot" if not a longer critique. I admit I post my shots out of pride, but hopefully not too prideful. It's easy to get your mom to tell you you're Michelangelo. Getting similar respect from other photographers is a bit harder. I try to give that back as I know that it takes courage to post a shot and hard work too. You wouldn't post it if you didn't feel it meant something to you. So thanking someone for posting it and giving him some measure of respect is worthwhile. I think getting no response at all is worse than anything. You wonder if anyone actually looked.

Having said that, giving good critique is very important. I'd like to know what people think. I may have missed stuff, probably often, because it's mine. If you look at someone's portraiture, and tell them the eyes would look brighter and more alive if they added catch lights, that's a positive learning experience for them. The art of critiquing is to be positive and gentle, something I find hard to do if I get carried away. Criticizing someone nicely is hard. Be nice when you do it.

well said and explained

 

[Overread]

If I tell a person that they need to do a particular thing to a picture I give them the benefit of the doubt that they heard me the first time so I personally don't see the point in telling them, the same person, the same thing over and over with almost each and every picture they post to the point that I lose sight of my original intent and become an aggravation rather than an inspiration. Maybe they simply want to do things their way and that's ok. How else do artists become famous? bottom line, if a person doesn't want to do what you suggest just leave them alone but that's not to say you shouldn't be allowed to critique. Just don't harass with it.

Certainly don't harass, but at the same time its important to realise a few things:

1) The person might not understand what you are saying. They might say they do, but they don't. Thus when you repeat you need to change how you word it or even go back a few more steps and go into more depth. Sometimes a different angle or such can help a person better understand you

2) They might understand the theory, but have difficulty putting it into practice. This might just be them needing more practice so that more individual steps are more instinctive for them to perform; or it might be that they don't know how to fit it into the process of taking a shot when in the moment. Again a new angle of explaining, perhaps giving them ideas on how they can make practical application of the theory .

3) They might disagree with you, but aren't saying so. At which point you might phrase your repeat as a question instead; asking them why they are choosing not to do what you've suggested. Being sure to phrase it as a question not an accusation

4) Repetition is how we most often learn things. We can learn a lot from one instruction, but we don't really "learn" until we repeat over and over. So sometimes yes you do have to repeat teaching when you are helping someone along. Each repetition is helping them, reminding them, each time they might pick up on little bits that steadily build into the whole picture.

 

[AlanKlein]

well said and explained

Now that's a nice critique.

 

[Original katomi]

Overread
Re your item 1
This is true, but I have noticed that as people become more advanced in their field they be less able to talk in basic terms.
Something to remember when teaching.... the carpenter places his thumb to guide the saw at the start of the cut
He has done this for the last 50 years, and no longer remembers doing so, thus forgets to teach it and gets frustrated when the learner does not understand why they can’t start the cut as easily..
I have moved on a bit in my photography but I try and rem... why I do things when showing /telling others
Ps having re read this... looks like I am have a go at you....
Not what is intended, more to expand on what you posted

 

[AlanKlein]

Overread
Re your item 1
This is true, but I have noticed that as people become more advanced in their field they be less able to talk in basic terms.
Something to remember when teaching.... the carpenter places his thumb to guide the saw at the start of the cut
He has done this for the last 50 years, and no longer remembers doing so, thus forgets to teach it and gets frustrated when the learner does not understand why they can’t start the cut as easily..
I have moved on a bit in my photography but I try and rem... why I do things when showing /telling others
Ps having re read this... looks like I am have a go at you....
Not what is intended, more to expand on what you posted

Computer IT people in particular. Whenever I have a problem with my software or hardware, the people you talk to speak in code, abbreviations, slang, computer speak, as if you work for Microsoft for 25 years. Instruction manuals are written that way as well. Actually it's gotten better over the years. But back when, you needed a PhD to understand them. Now you only need a Masters.

 

[K9Kirk]

If I tell a person that they need to do a particular thing to a picture I give them the benefit of the doubt that they heard me the first time so I personally don't see the point in telling them, the same person, the same thing over and over with almost each and every picture they post to the point that I lose sight of my original intent and become an aggravation rather than an inspiration. Maybe they simply want to do things their way and that's ok. How else do artists become famous? bottom line, if a person doesn't want to do what you suggest just leave them alone but that's not to say you shouldn't be allowed to critique. Just don't harass with it.

Certainly don't harass, but at the same time its important to realise a few things:

1) The person might not understand what you are saying. They might say they do, but they don't. Thus when you repeat you need to change how you word it or even go back a few more steps and go into more depth. Sometimes a different angle or such can help a person better understand you

2) They might understand the theory, but have difficulty putting it into practice. This might just be them needing more practice so that more individual steps are more instinctive for them to perform; or it might be that they don't know how to fit it into the process of taking a shot when in the moment. Again a new angle of explaining, perhaps giving them ideas on how they can make practical application of the theory .

3) They might disagree with you, but aren't saying so. At which point you might phrase your repeat as a question instead; asking them why they are choosing not to do what you've suggested. Being sure to phrase it as a question not an accusation

4) Repetition is how we most often learn things. We can learn a lot from one instruction, but we don't really "learn" until we repeat over and over. So sometimes yes you do have to repeat teaching when you are helping someone along. Each repetition is helping them, reminding them, each time they might pick up on little bits that steadily build into the whole picture.[/QUOTE

To be clear, I'm not the person suggesting or telling the other what to do, I'm on the receiving end of it. Someone has assumed I need their mentoring when I don't and don't want it. No worries, I'll send them a friendly PM and put an end to this.

 

[terri]

All right, folks! The TPF C&C Gallery is now open for business!

We're putting it in as a Gallery since that's an easy place to find it. There are a couple of do's and don'ts in there, but hopefully we've captured the overall spirit of what has been suggested in here.

We definitely consider it a work in progress, so let's get it kicked off and see what works and what may not. Thanks for having a great discussion and keeping TPF the member-driven community that we all enjoy!

Have fun with it!

 

[CherylL]

I think C&C is very helpful. I want to know what you see versus what I don't see in a photo. Was the posing off, background distraction, focus off, more DOF etc. I can't see what I don't know so the C&C helps.

When I joined this forum the C&C was harsh at times to some people and things did get heated. I learned a lot from other's photos. At first I had no idea what was being said. Because I didn't see much back then. The next step I did was toolook at a photo posted for C&C and try to see what would be said about the photo before reading the comments.

There were a lot of links posted a few years ago versus now. And I did click on all the ones directed to me and most of the others. I learned a lot by reading those links. When you are starting out you don't know how to google efficiently the terms. There is so much info on the net that having a good quality link to info is helpful.

I've been guilty of posting "good shot" or "excellent set". I do try at times to say something more like I like the POV or the colors. If someone is an excellent photographer it seems they may not want or care what I think of a photo because I am not at their level. That is my thinking and not what anyone has said to me.

I appreciate all of the help I've received from forum members. My photos are ok to edit and that has been helpful too.

 

[smoke665]

Some of the comments touched on this already but to reiterate their points, it is important when giving critque on an image to consider the experience level of the person asking for critique. Going after every little nitpick you can find in an image presented by someone starting out isn't beneficial or necessary, because they likely won't remember it all and may even scare them off. Instead look toward the most glaring or obvious to guide them in steps. As the experience level of person increases so should the level of critique they receive. Finally consider the experience level of the one you are critiquing vs your own level. Being critical of a creative choice is touchy, it's okay to not like it, but it's wise to tread lightly on changes. If you are stating an opinion then do so and move on, don't continue to harp on the poster's choice.

 

[AlanKlein]

Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative. I find that more women shoot better than men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.

 

[Overread]

Cheryl: I checked your pictures and they're very creative. I find that more women shoot better than men because they're more concerned about aesthetics and others things beside mechanics that men seem more concerned with. They're not pixel peepers like the boys.

The older I get the more I wonder if this isn't accidentally the result of the fact that the "arts" tend to be a hobby/school interest that "TENDS" to be marketed and focused more toward girls than boys. Ergo that when you get older and into adults you get more girls doing photography from an artistic background, whilst more guys are doing it from a lesser artistic background (often specifically because they "can't draw or do art").