The Pact

[manaheim]

Instead of Criticism or telling others what you do not like. Tell them only what you do like or make no comment and realize you do not have to comment about any image.

It's this "say something nice or don't say anything at all" that contributes to everyone feeling happy and joyous, but at the same time contributes to the collective degredation of anything that matters. It also leads to kids TV shows where the pizza man is a hero because he delivered a pizza.

If people ASK for opinions, then they need to hear the good AND the bad. People giving opinions should do so without being a horrible jerk about it, but they should be honest.

They then have to have the internal strength to decide which opinions they agree with and which they don't.

If they can't do this, then they shouldn't be asking for opinions.

 

[DRB022]

Very well thought out. I agree with everything on here. People need to be told what they're doing wrong or they'll never progress.

 

[UUilliam]

I Recommend no helping people with 1 post who have came asking "wut camera do i buy" or any others that relate to it...
the only reply to a "1 poster" should be critique on their images or help on what iso, aperture etc.. is but dont help those that are obviously leeching and are gunna just post once, take our advice then run away

 

[Overread]

I Recommend no helping people with 1 post who have came asking "wut camera do i buy" or any others that relate to it...
the only reply to a "1 poster" should be critique on their images or help on what iso, aperture etc.. is but dont help those that are obviously leeching and are gunna just post once, take our advice then run away

I somewhat disagree - we all start somewhere with our photography and a key starting point is getting the right camera. And of course one thing to do when you have little to no idea of a subject or area is to go right out and find people in that interest and ask them - shopkeepers, clubs, friends and forums all serve this use and its foolish to turn away newblood like that.

Sure many might just make one post and never appear again, others might make one decent thread and then slink away - and some others are going to be gratefull at the help and decide to stick around. Sure they won't answer many questions and will ask all the horrid "What is exposure/Ohh filters or not/etc..." We all do when we are new - we learn, we grow and we oneday are no longer in those beginner shoes.

We can't expect new people to have a reputation with us, a long postcount and many years experience every time - TPF is here for all levels from beginner amateur through to experienced Pro.

*edit* heck my early posts were all like that --- asking questions all over the place -- even kit questions!
http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...1428-canon-70-200mm-f2-8-canon-100-400mm.html

 

[JerryPH]

In the beginning, I did not bother even posting... I did something reeeeeeeeeeeealy unique... I did searches and found answers to 99% of my own questions... lol

 

[Overread]

Some talk and some read

I know people who just can't learn from a book at all - the words have to be directed at them and crafted to their thoughts to get the point over. Also a significant part of searching is having the right question to start with. Google is great, but its not a mind reader nor does it filter info either.

In all truth almost every question has already been asked somewhere on the net in some form - so by value of that rule we should not have techhelp/kit advice/shooting advice or anything else -- but we find we do.....

 

[UUilliam]

Yeah i suppose... but some of them are really obvious on which are gunna run away after they get the answer.. just use rule of thumb who to give help to and who not to
If someone joins with 1 post and is like "i have looked through many cameras and just cant decide on the last few, im hoping someone her can help make the final decision i'm looking for something i can shoot baseball with, with a decent image quality." - i would help them
But people who join like "I have a product shoot tomorrow which lens should i buy for it and what gear do i need i dont want to spend more than $500"
it's like... uhmn you doing a product shoot but have no idea what your doing...

its all about natural selection

I just find it very ignorant to not commit to a community yet ask them for that sort of advice on a first post
there is atleast 2 - 3 "what camera" threads per day.. they have no excuse to make another one... the answers have all been posted yesterday.. it just starts to get a bit like hog day
The same question over and over and over by the same type of people
E.g. by people looking to make a quick buck without understanding the fullness and the cost of photography, the people who thinks "ill do a wedding for $1000 and all i need to do is point and click and it is easy money for 1 days work"
They dont realise they are going to ruin someones memories, memories that cannot be restored, once its over... its over
they dont understand the post wedding work required, the hours in post processing fixing images, cost of the prints etc...
It is the people who they hope to offer their services to i feel sorry for...
The one i hate most... "Yeah i take images on my phone and my friends all say they are really good i should be a pro photog so i decided i will buy a big professional camera and be a professional photographer but which camera is the best camera i can buy just now? but i only want to spend $200 i cant afford anymore, im only 15."

I will admit... 1 year ago i didn't even know about DSLR's i thought they were all for the REAL pros and the only ones ams used were high grade compacts with the likes of Canon G9 powershot / G10
I didn't know what EV was
Aperture
I didnt even know what Macro ment...

But i went on google and searched something like "Professional Camera"
Which showed up some results of DSLRs at like £500 and i thought £500!! thats cheap! (no im not rich... i work 4.51 an hour atm but back then i never worked at all... i was one of those people in my "latter" comment.)
Anyways i somehow learned about cameras no idea how tho... it just sorta happens to me (with the exception to Web Coding... just cant get my head around that!!!!)
and I never researched my camera... i just felt it in my soul the 450D was for me...
My main prospect was budget but reliable
The 450D (i spotted it on amazon at £232 for about 1 week then it went back to £450)
My mum had promised she would buy me a Camera but she was wanting to buy me a compact or a bridge (and she said she was gunna photograph weddings.... like the people i mentioned in my former quote...)
But I (maybe stuck up ) was set on the 450D, people tried to side track me from it by bribing me the D40 at only £200 but i wanted the 450...
long story short...
I got a job... worked and saved the pennys and about 3 month of working 39 hours per week at 4.51 and i finally could afford the £473 for my Canon 450d + 18-55mm kit lens... i still remember the feeling i got when i recieved it through the post...
i didn't use it from fear of breaking it for about 3 days
when i pulled it out the box, i threw the manual away (hate reading those things... bad habbits from them i rather mess around)
set it onto manual and just took shots around the house... i never went outside with it until feburary when i was on holiday, it was my first time outside... i was shooting at f4.5 at 1/4000 on iso 200
the shots weren't terribly exposed but the composition was horrible...
but it was a awakeup call to research on the functions of my camera
so i read the exifs of people photos to see the general Settings they use and searching what iso was and how to use it etc...

basically i researched everything my self... and i feel i have went a long way since last year.. now i know how to frame an image correctly so it interests the eye, i can use iso, aperture, custom WB, EV, Raw files, Bracketing, Shutter speed, AE Lock etc..

 

[Overread]

Yeah i suppose... but some of them are really obvious on which are gunna run away after they get the answer.. just use rule of thumb who to give help to and who not to
If someone joins with 1 post and is like "i have looked through many cameras and just cant decide on the last few, im hoping someone her can help make the final decision i'm looking for something i can shoot baseball with, with a decent image quality." - i would help them
But people who join like "I have a product shoot tomorrow which lens should i buy for it and what gear do i need i dont want to spend more than $500"
it's like... uhmn you doing a product shoot but have no idea what your doing...

Your somewhat changing the argument here - initially you were saying not to help people with a single "what camera" post but now your changing it to those seeking to use their (in the view of others) have limited or no real experience in working within the field of photography.

there is atleast 2 - 3 "what camera" threads per day.. they have no excuse to make another one... the answers have all been posted yesterday.. it just starts to get a bit like hog day
The same question over and over and over by the same type of people
E.g. by people looking to make a quick buck without understanding the fullness and the cost of photography, the people who thinks "ill do a wedding for $1000 and all i need to do is point and click and it is easy money for 1 days work"
They dont realise they are going to ruin someones memories, memories that cannot be restored, once its over... its over
they dont understand the post wedding work required, the hours in post processing fixing images, cost of the prints etc...
It is the people who they hope to offer their services to i feel sorry for...
The one i hate most... "Yeah i take images on my phone and my friends all say they are really good i should be a pro photog so i decided i will buy a big professional camera and be a professional photographer but which camera is the best camera i can buy just now? but i only want to spend $200 i cant afford anymore, im only 15."

Again your confusing the argument between beginners asking beginner level questions and people seeking to earn off their photography whilst having little to no real world experience of the shooting event. Its a key difference, the two are not the same.
Also for the bold red - these sorts of people are most likley going to do the shoot anyway if nobody posts to advise them. Maybe they go to another forum or they just got with their gut and do whatever they think is best - its not going to be much of a help or aid to those who are going to be on the reciving end of a lesser quality product and service. On the other hand giving them some leading advice and some guidance as well as some (polite!) cautionary notes (don't do it don't do it! ! ) might just tip the scales a bit. They might at least turn away with an improved end result, ok it won't be "pro" class but it might be better than what they would have done alone; and heck they might even decide to call the thing off and find someone else - not everyone is bullheaded and always out for the quickbuck.

Also as for answering repeat questions asked over and over on the forums, the Pact makes no say that we must respond to each and every thread nor to judge the person making the post, yet you are asking that we start to make a policy of excluding advice to certain select groups. This is a dangerous move in itself - how long before we extend this bias to say all repeat and beginner threads - and maybe further? I would seriously affect those to the site looking for advice and aid in some basic areas of photography

http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/beyond-basics/170130-setting-white-balance.html

- and no that is not a dig at you at all (search my history and you will find many a beginner question there) its reminding you that you also asked those questions and that you also benefited from the replies.

If people are willing to spend time to answer these questions - sometimes over and over - then why stop? Again nobody forces anyone to reply to these threads.

 

[Bee Bee]

From what I have seen so far on the site ( and forgive me because I have only been here a few days), I think the pact is an excellent idea. In an ideal world there would be no need for it as people would automatically understand all aspects of it, but we do not live in an ideal world and therefore such things are necessary.

Now someone clue me in on how to put the link in my signature.... thanks xxx

 

[liltimmy1313]

I agree with most of what is on the pact, except about the bit where I can't get into heat fights. I think that witch critique will come differing opinions, and if we are all being honest, then fights WILL break out and I, for one, think that it's fine to get a little spice on TPF. This is with respect in mind. Mind your manners, don't start low-balling and calling names (like 4 year olds and politicians).

That's just my two cents. Otherwise I agree with everything stated, and always assumed that it was a given to leave in depth critique without sucking up or insulting...

 

[Dagwood56]

From what I have seen so far on the site ( and forgive me because I have only been here a few days), I think the pact is an excellent idea. In an ideal world there would be no need for it as people would automatically understand all aspects of it, but we do not live in an ideal world and therefore such things are necessary.

Now someone clue me in on how to put the link in my signature.... thanks xxx

If you go back through the earlier pages, you'll see where I asked the same question. Jerry was kind enough to post an easy to follow set of instructions.

 

[Josh66]

I think that with critique will come differing opinions, and if we are all being honest, then fights WILL break out and I, for one, think that it's fine to get a little spice on TPF.

I don't think that differing opinions = fighting.

Differing opinions would only lead to fighting if the OP is closed-minded and can't take the fact that there are people that don't like what they've done.
(Assuming that the differing opinion isn't "You suck. Your picture sucks. Why do you even bother posting here?" - that doesn't help anybody.)


I have no problems with someone disagreeing with me.

I would like for them to explain to me why, but even if they don't - I don't get all bent out of shape.


I firmly believe that if you want to get better, you have to know what needs imporovement. You will never find out if everyone is scared to tell you.

"This is what you did wrong, and this is what you should try next time."
People get all offended and pissed off over that, but without it you will never improve.

...OK, maybe you will, eventually. It would happen a lot faster with useful feedback though.

 

[Overread]

I agree with OIIIIO most certainly, conflict does not have to come from differing views and I would hope that most here are able to conduct themselves in a manner where we can have these differences without conflict.

Differing opinions would only lead to fighting if the OP is closed-minded and can't take the fact that there are people that don't like what they've done.

Remember its not always the OP sometimes is the comenters too can cause a fight - often though just missuse of words or a slightly overzealous focusing on the negtive and often a very impartial voice can see very harsh or overbearing when in written words alone.

 

[Josh66]

Remember its not always the OP sometimes is the comenters too can cause a fight - often though just missuse of words or a slightly overzealous focusing on the negtive and often a very impartial voice can see very harsh or overbearing when in written words alone.

True. I think that the type of comment that I'm sure you're thinking of are better left unposted though.

If all you have to say is "it sucks", I would rather not even see it. On the other hand - "I don't really like it... It's too soft, try stopping down a little next time" actually is helpful. ...Even without the part about stopping down.

If you don't like it - say why. You may not know how to make it better, but if you say exactly what it is that you don't like, the person that took the picture at least has an idea of what they did wrong.

That being said - just because one person doesn't like it doesn't mean you did anything wrong. Maybe that person just isn't in the right mood, or it isn't their style.

If nobody likes it, you may want to find out why.


I think most of us are of the school that "if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything". That helps avoid confrontation, but it doesn't help the photographer improve.


When I come across a picture I don't like, I usually don't comment on it. If I think I know a way to make it better, I do comment though.

I think it's a fine line you have to walk. Do you tell them that you don't like it, and maybe offer tips for improvement - or do you just move on to the next thread...? For me, I just move on unless I think I can offer help.

Which is better?

Would you rather know that there were a few people that didn't like it (and hopefully get a few tips), or only see the positive feedback?

If you really feel that it's good work, it can be hard to find out that other people think differently. I think it helps you grow though.



Just an idea -What if...

If you view a picture, you MUST comment on it, no matter what you have to say...? Try to offer tips, or at least say why you did or didn't like it.

I think that would help a lot, but some people will get hurt feelings over it.

 

[mooimeisie]

Just an idea -What if...

If you view a picture, you MUST comment on it, no matter what you have to say...? Try to offer tips, or at least say why you did or didn't like it.

I think that would help a lot, but some people will get hurt feelings over it.

This would be a very interesting way to go. I agree with you.