Trespassing and Police

[Orgnoi1]

In my current town, a local photographer was arrested and fined $10,000 for shooting on railroad tracks. Even though there wasn't a train scheduled to arrive anytime soon. Apparently, the only railroad tracks you can shoot on are those that are abandoned.

Railroad tracks arent public property... even abandoned ones are private and you could be fined if arrested even on those... unfortunate fact of life when you shoot trains (as I do) that the railroads are not into having photographers killed by incompetence... so make it clear by example what will happen when you shoot there...

 

[newrmdmike]

to legally use photographs from anywhere not in the public eye you need a property release in order to publish, otherwise you may be sued.

(correct?)

 

[Rob]

to legally use photographs from anywhere not in the public eye you need a property release in order to publish, otherwise you may be sued.

(correct?)

As with everything in this world, it depends on where you live, local laws, regional laws, national laws, times-of-heightened-paranoia laws...

Generally, the answer would be no, you do not need a property release form, assuming that the photograph was taken from public property or in other ways accordant with the law. As with anything in this world however; it's never that simple. Let's say for the sake of argument that you legally took a picture of Acme Corporation's headquarters in a perfectly legal fashion from a public place. Then you put on a caption saying "these guys are evil" and published it. You should probably be fine huh? Maybe not if you included their logo, because that's copyright.... maybe not if local laws prevent you from making defamatory images targetting a business... Maybe not if you don't want the wrath of Acme corporation on your case.

Model releases and permissions are good to have things, especially if you are selling to litigiously aware corporations. However, in reality it's pretty hard to sue someone for taking a picture and publishing it (especially when it's a building).

There's loads to this subject and it varies (legality-wise) enormously from place to place. In the UK, we are pretty relaxed about buildings (with a couple of exceptions) and you would never need a property release to sell or publish a picture of a building (that I can think of!). It's perfectly OK to go up to the British secret intelligence service headquarters and take a picture of the building, complete with bristling CCTV cameras. I wouldn't recommend lurking for extended periods, but you get the idea.


Rob

 

[LWW]

BTW, a press pass does not give you the OK to trespass on private property.

LWW

 

[usayit]

Once on public property you can shoot anything. even someone sunbathing in there backyard topless... (not that i have... cause I havent...)

Assuming you are not on a ladder shooting over a fence that completely blocks public view with the purpose of providing privacy. In that situation, one could argue that the topless person had an "expectation" of privacy.

 

[rmh159]

I went down to the LA Harbor to take pictures of the cool cranes at night from a public street. Security came and told me to move along, to which I answered that it was my right to take pictures from a public street. Well, of course they called for back-up, two more pick-up trucks full of fat guys came, they started jostling me around. Then the cops came, broke it up, and told me to move along. I reiterated my rights, was given a funny look, and told that they'd be glad to take me to the precinct to tell someone "who cares."

I think this brings up a good point about police. They do have the right to arrest you regardless of your "rights". What's limited is how long they can hold you without charging you.

When in college my one law professor gave an example (it was about 5 years ago so if the details aren't 100% forgive me... but the idea still stands) that if you were walking on the street with a licensed gun that isn't concealed or being waved around / pointed at anyone you're LEGALLY not breaking any laws. However if a cop sees this you're going to jail without a second's hesitation.

So while carrying a camera isn't exactly the same thing as carrying a gun the point is if the cop wants to take you to jail and then release you later without charging you ... you're pretty much F-ed.

 

[table1349]

I think this brings up a good point about police. They do have the right to arrest you regardless of your "rights". What's limited is how long they can hold you without charging you.

When in college my one law professor gave an example (it was about 5 years ago so if the details aren't 100% forgive me... but the idea still stands) that if you were walking on the street with a licensed gun that isn't concealed or being waved around / pointed at anyone you're LEGALLY not breaking any laws. However if a cop sees this you're going to jail without a second's hesitation.

So while carrying a camera isn't exactly the same thing as carrying a gun the point is if the cop wants to take you to jail and then release you later without charging you ... you're pretty much F-ed.

Actually, as a 25 year law enforcement officer, no you can't be arrested regardless of your rights. Not without legal repurcussions if you so choose to pursue them. The problem is that what your rights are and what you precieve as your rights are often two different things. Your example from you law professor is a perfect eample of what I mean. In many (possibly most) jurisdictions it is against the law to carry a firearm. Registered or not. Only those with carry conceal permits are legal in carrying a concealed handgun. The open display of a firearm is not concealed, nor is it lawful, except for law enforcement and ON DUTY security personel in most jurisdictions. (The state of Arizona is the only exception to this one I am aware of. It's still 1872 there.)

As for the photographer being arrested and fined $10,000 for being on the railroad tracks taking photos. Railroad tracks are private property covered by Federal Law and have been for many many years. It has always been a crime to trespass on railroad property and the fine for doing so is $10,000. It is stated in plain view on signs along railroad tracks, rail bridges etc. This is nothing new.

A little common sense is very helpful when being questioned by the police about photographing in a certain area or thing. First if you are not on public property or have permission from the property owner to be where you are, You are done, game over, shut up, appoligize and leave quietly. There is no argument as there is not an "ART" excption in the Constitution.

If you are on public property, and are questioned, be polite, and direct in your answers. Have good photo identification on your person that is current and up to date. Don't say stupid **** or make up some BS about why you are photographing what you are. If your desired venue in photography is lug nuts on the right rear tires of trucks then say so. Don't go into a long disertation about artistic freedom. (Why anyone would take photos of the lug nuts on the right rear tires of trucks I don't know, but each to their own) If you happen to have a couple of examples of your work great, offer to show them. Do yourself a favor and do not argue. If asked to leave, do so. They may be wroing, it happens, you have other recourses after the fact. The fact is, that if you argue, even if you are in the right and then resist their actions, you can be charged with obstruct or resist. This is a legal charge even if the officer is wrong. His/her being wrong does not give you the right to resist or obstruct.

As for dealing with security guards (rent a cops) you are on your own. They are a pain in our @## as well.

The bottom line is, if you are on public property in a place you are allowed to be, (interstate highways are public property, but it is not legal to be on foot in the roadway) or you have permission from the property owner to be where you are, you should be fine. If not, you took it upon yourself so be ready for what comes.

 

[Soocom1]

Several points here.
First to gry: In New Mexico, you can carry a loaded UN-concealed firearm everywhere except the usual forbidden places. Schools, Post offices, etc.
You can carry a loaded CONCEALED firearm on your person while on YOUR property etal: your house, AND vehicle. (NM defines a vehicle as extension of the home). Or you can get a CC license for carrying it concealed and loaded on your person.

Law enforcement personnel generally has their heads screwed on straight. Unless it is an obvious violation, they generally leave you alone. The rent a cops on the other hand have a problem understanding this because they are not required by law to KNOW the law. Quiz most cops, and they have an understanding of the Constitution. Most rent a cops (with a few exceptions) generally are the wanna-bees that don't know anything more than the BS taught in our glorious Public Education system. I have again had a nice conversation with an individual who actually thought that digital cameras were NOT permitted within 100 feet of a public building. He cited the Patriot Act, and said that it destroyed the Forth Amendment. I then had him read the Patriot act word for word, and he found out like me, that it doesn't say anything of the sort.

 

[Illah]

I worry less about the law and more about the hobos and whatnot, but I live in San Francisco. We have lots of hobos, many who clearly carry shanks in their back right pocket (I guess it's like a fashion statement or something). Now most of these guys are just transients - these aren't crazy drug addicts - but it's still an iffy situation.

As for the law, my dad was a cop. His advice to me when dealing with the police was just to be a nice guy. Don't talk *at* them as representatives of the 'law', talk to them like you would anyone else. Most of the time they'll tell you to move on, go home, whatever. I made a shady run through a yellow light that turned red right before I got in the intersection and was pulled over. Told the cop I was sorry, explained what happened, and all was well. Just don't be a prick and start screaming how the light was yellow and how their salaries are paid with our tax money.

I have a funny feeling that guy fined $10K on the railroad tracks made an ass of himself to get that fine. Most cops aren't looking to prosecute anyone and everyone, but if you start acting like a prick they're happy to stick you with whatever they can.

--Illah

 

[table1349]

Several points here.
First to gry: In New Mexico, you can carry a loaded UN-concealed firearm everywhere except the usual forbidden places. Schools, Post offices, etc.
You can carry a loaded CONCEALED firearm on your person while on YOUR property etal: your house, AND vehicle. (NM defines a vehicle as extension of the home). Or you can get a CC license for carrying it concealed and loaded on your person.

Interesting to know about New Mexico. I was aware of the AZ laws but not New Mexico's. Here in Kansas you can carry a concealled or unconcealed firearm on your own property, home or business. A vehicle on a public roadway however is public, and carrying of a loaded firearm is not allowable. A gun must be unloaded, ammunition stored seperatly and not within reach. such as the locked trunk. We now have the CC law that will start after the first of the year. I have no problems with that. However the posters remarks were of an unconcealed weapon in public and again, AZ is the only state I know of that allows the carrying of an unconcealed weapon by any lawful individual.

 

[denvermax]

yesterday i was shooting a local oil refinery at like 2 in the morning and site security questioned me. they thought i could potentially using the photos for sabatogee!

 

[Claff]

I got hassled by the security people at the Hollywood Forever cematery, just cause I was shooting macro shots of the vintage Rolls Royce hearse parked near the entrance. They said I should go inside and ask for permission to shoot, which they'd probably grant, but it ticked me off enough in the first place that I just got back in the car and went elsewhere.

 

[Personalized Stamp]

So has anyone here ever been questioned/arrested/fined by the police for trespassing? I was in an interesting industrial area in Erie, and there was a vacant lot where a factory had been razed. There were no "no trespassing" signs but it was in the open and I was a little hesitant to go wandering around that area.

Based on what law they'll arrest you if there are no signs?

 

[quad b]

I've been taking some photos of the Sydney Harbour Bridge lately, and both times I've been up there, I've been told by security that I can't take photos of the bridge abutments or detailed shots of the pin joints etc. They say I can only take photos of the bridge as a whole and from a distance. This is only since 9/11 and the Bali bombings. I know they're protecting us/the bridge BUT I think it's pretty crap that I'm not allowed to take these pics.

 

[toastydeath]

Anyone taking actual reconnasance photographs of an area does not want to be noticed, and will not be clicking away with an obvious camera. Your local SWAT team knows this just as well as violent criminals/terrorists do - they roll by drughouses in unmarked cars, video cameras rolling. They don't send someone out to stand in front of the building and take pictures of the lamp posts with careful consideration for angles and lighting.

"Protecting the bridge" is a poor excuse, but is required to generate the atmosphere necessary to intimidate rights away in more critical areas (protest photography, police interactions, etc).

For those of you truly concerned with the police, you need a friend to play noninteractive bystander with a concealed camera. No matter what you do, if you fear your rights are going to be removed, this is standard practice. As the kind officer mentioned earlier, you DO have recourse if your rights are violated. If I ever feel the need (and I don't) to be in a place where that becomes an issue, I would rather spend the money on some video equippment and wireless mics. Just let the chips fall where they may, if that occurs. I am always kind, be polite, cooperative, and understanding. I used to work very closely with the police, and there are some fine people out there. There are also some really rotten ones. If I go to jail for unfounded reasons, my buddy not only has the audio and video at a safe distance for me when I contact my attourney, but can testify as well.

An overzealous police officer will then kindly pay for a pair of new d200 bodies and that tilt-shift lens I want.