Trespassing and Police

Lol999 · Oct 28, 2006

i got pulled by "security" the other day whilst in my nearest city. I was photographing a building from what I thought was the pavement but now realise was "private" property. I was snapping away and I hear a shout asking me to stop photographing the building. Turns out it's the building manager who tells me that some of the businesses don't like having their logos photographed. I apologise and plead ignorance and put the camera away. Turns out they had also had paedos pointed out to them by the police using the area to photograph kids so everyone with a camera gets pulled and asked to move on. He was actually a pretty decent guy when we got chatting and suggested some spots in the city I could get good photographs. I gave him my card and off I went. My standard action when confronted is this:
1) Put the camera away and fasten your bag. That way it's not up for grabs from idiots who think they can confiscate it.
2) Apologise immediately and plead ignorance to any violation
3) Start walking towards a "public" area. Most securrity will be happy to follow you flexing their chest/belly satsified that they "showed you who's boss".
4) If they want a confrontation continue doing 3)

I've never been pulled by the police but I know this much, ain't NO ONE getting my gear off me. They can examine it in the presence of me and a solicitor and that's as much as they are doing. I'll have my day in court first.

Lol

terri · Oct 28, 2006

Lol999 said:
i got pulled by "security" the other day whilst in my nearest city. I was photographing a building from what I thought was the pavement but now realise was "private" property. I was snapping away and I hear a shout asking me to stop photographing the building. Turns out it's the building manager who tells me that some of the businesses don't like having their logos photographed. I apologise and plead ignorance and put the camera away. Turns out they had also had paedos pointed out to them by the police using the area to photograph kids so everyone with a camera gets pulled and asked to move on. He was actually a pretty decent guy when we got chatting and suggested some spots in the city I could get good photographs. I gave him my card and off I went. My standard action when confronted is this:
1) Put the camera away and fasten your bag. That way it's not up for grabs from idiots who think they can confiscate it.
2) Apologise immediately and plead ignorance to any violation
3) Start walking towards a "public" area. Most securrity will be happy to follow you flexing their chest/belly satsified that they "showed you who's boss".
4) If they want a confrontation continue doing 3)

I've never been pulled by the police but I know this much, ain't NO ONE getting my gear off me. They can examine it in the presence of me and a solicitor and that's as much as they are doing. I'll have my day in court first.

Lol

Sounds like you did everything right. Usually just the act of packing it in and moving on is enough to defuse these kinds of situations. I got run out of a flea market, of all places, something about my being a spy for a competing flea market (who knew?!) :lol:

but there was NO signage about photography not being allowed. They weren't happy but there was nothing they could other than allow me to apologize and leave.

Orgnoi1 · Oct 28, 2006

rmh159 said:
that if you were walking on the street with a licensed gun that isn't concealed or being waved around / pointed at anyone you're LEGALLY not breaking any laws. However if a cop sees this you're going to jail without a second's hesitation..

Just for sake of specifics in NY since that is where the quoted person is from...

If you are carrying a HANDgun around and it isnt concealed.. it IS illegal... NY State (not NYC) only issues two types of handgun permits: Concealed and Premise. So once a handgun is no longer concealed for any means other than what your handgun permit states, you are breaking the law.

cosmonaut · Oct 28, 2006

I know this sounds old fashion, but I have found if you take the time and trouble to ask permisson most with go way out of their way to help you get what you want....
Cosmo

bryanwhite · Dec 22, 2006

NYY said:
...i've been thinking of trespassing a local resevoir lately

The other thing about this, there's no need to trespass, at least not here in my neck of the woods. They are so big on education here, they'll take anyone up for a small fee, with proper planning (I think they only require about four days notice). Let them know what you would like to do, and often you will get your way, and a good talk about how we should respectfully use (not completely stay away from because we are such lepers) the land and environment around us.

As far as areas with tight security, I have a very interesting story here, interesting because of the result because I was compliant. I was shooting a safety video for a transportation company at the Portland Airport. After about 20 min of tapinig, the police showed up, wondering what I was doing. Because I had a badge from the airport on, matching my driver's license, and because I was perfectly willing to let them and the TSA see my footage, as well as asking questions about where I should and should not shoot, they left an officer with me, who further acted as my escort and did things like answering bystander's questions while I shot vehicles going by. It was great.

Being in the motor coach industry, an area not understood too well by many police officers because the regulations we operate under are downright strange (we are regulated as a car in regard to speed but not weight, although my weight is not governed as a truck either, but I do have to keep a logbook like a truck, for instance), I keep a copy of the booklet the Government printed out for me on hand at all times, so if I do pull over, it is me being compliant, respectful and obedient, and [their] book being the thing fighting them, if anything does. The other thing I do is present the book in a very non-confrontational way, "Well, you know, I'm not sure about that," (D*** straight, I'm sure about it), "maybe I'm wrong. I have a Federal DOT book here, may we look it up?"

Please note, I have nothing against the police, I really like all the police I have ever had interaction with (a few, I got their card and we kept in touch, when I have a question, I ask them, they like that, etc.) If you keep in mind that it's a human being you're talking to, not a badge, you'll go much farther.

Soocom1 said:
What you cannot do is trespass on those tracks or railroad property. Not only is it criminal to do so, but also very dangerous.

Yes, trains sneak up on you. I went to an unregulated crossing (no lights/signal) and sat there about ten fifteen feet from the tracks, facing one direction. I had a couple trains go by that I didn't hear until they were right on top of me. If I do shoot on tracks, I have a watchout whose only job is to watch for trains. If you aren't in a position to see the train coming, it will sneak up on you. It's amazinig how little noise they project ahead of them. Then, consider how little of the train is actually touching the ground. Each wheel is a steel wheel on a steel track, and neither bend much. That means that on each wheel, less than a finger width (and even THAT is being generous) is in contact with the rail. For an entire mile-and-a-half train, the total surface area of contact with the ground is probably less thanthe surface area of the windshield of your car. It's the only reason the trian is able to roll down the tracks, but it also makes it very, very slow to stop since there's so little traction. Think about that next time you're trying to beat a train through a crossing.

Trains are extremely dangerous in those regards, hence the downright mean, narrow-minded execution of law with the railroad companies, because hitting you with a train is much meaner.

[/soapbox]

EDIT: Stupid...me...forgot...to...check...dates... Didn't mean to necro the thread

:taped sh:

RMThompson · Dec 22, 2006

Wow you dug deep to find this thread, but an interesting read throughout.

I am planning on doing some street photography in Tampa soon, and I think some of the pointers will come in handy!

bnz506 · Dec 22, 2006

Im from NYC and there are huge misconceptions about the law on taking photos in the subways and on the trains. It is legal but cops and MTA personnel are uninformed and are always hassling photographers ever since 9-11. I pretty much carry this print out as a part of my camera gear:

Rules of Conduct

Rules governing the conduct and safety of the public in the use of the facilities of the New York City Transit Authority and Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority
a. Section 1050.9
Restricted areas and activities.

No person, except as specifically authorized by the Authority, shall enter or attempt to enter into any area not open to the public, including but not limited to train operator's cabs, conductor's cabs, bus operator's seat location, station booths, closed-off areas, mechanical or equipment rooms, concession stands, storage areas, interior rooms, catwalks, emergency stairways (except in cases of an emergency), tracks, roadbeds, tunnels, plants, shops, barns, train yards, garages, depots or any area marked with a sign restricting access or indicating a dangerous environment.

No vehicle, except as specifically authorized, may be parked on Authority property.

No person may ride on the roof, platform between subway cars or on any other area outside any subway car or bus or other conveyance operated by the Authority. No person may use the end doors of a subway car to pass from one subway car to another except in an emergency or when directed to do so by an Authority conductor or a New York City police officer. Photography, filming or video recording in any facility or conveyance is permitted except that ancillary equipment such as lights, reflectors or tripods may not be used. Members of the press holding valid identification issued by the New York City Police Department are hereby authorized to use necessary ancillary equipment. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

No person shall extend his or her hand, arm, leg, head or other part of his or her person, or extend any item, article or other substance outside of the window or door of a subway car, bus or other conveyance operated by the Authority.

No person shall enter or leave a subway car, bus or other conveyance operated by the Authority except through the entrances and exits provided for that purpose.

No person may carry on or bring to any facility or conveyance any item that:

is so long as to extend outside the window or door of a subway car, bus or other conveyance;

constitutes a hazard to the operation of the Authority, interferes with passenger traffic, or impedes service; or

constitutes a danger or hazard to other persons.

Nothing contained in this section shall apply to the use of wheelchairs, crutches, canes or other physical assistance devices.

I am going to visit my parents on the 24th I am interested to know if there are any laws against photography in the airports. I'm sure there arent since Ive seen many airport photographs.

skates94 · Dec 23, 2006

Great thread:

As a police officer for the past 5 years the only thing that I ask for is respect....... not as a police officer but as a human being. If in my contact with you while I'm performing my duties you treat me with respect I will treat you with the same respect. In the end my decision in regards to your situation will be more than fair...... because you treated me as a human being.

Besides, the fact that I'm on this website shows I have a passion about photography and you never know who you are dealing with. That police officer who may be asking you about why your on private property photographing whatever may be an avid photographer themselves and after taking care of "business" will be more interested in your shared hobby.

Take care and stay safe.

DeepSpring · Dec 23, 2006

I have a questions maybe someone in law enforcement can answer.

So from this topic I have come to the conclusion that if I am standing on a public sidewalk I can take a picture of anything out in the open correct?

So I was hanging outside of The Sherman Oaks Galleria one night, it is this sort of out door mall. Here is a picture so you can understand what I'm saying http://www.robotoys.com/GalleriaFront.gif
A man came up and was standign on the side walk, at the very left of the frame. infront of the stairs. He was standing on city property. He had a Panasonic DVX 100A video camera on a prety hefty looking tripod. He also had a few accessory belts on. Not even a minute after the guy sets up a security guard comes over looking extremely mad, the man picks up the tripod and runs away.

Since he was on public property and shooting what was out in the open for anyone to see I cant understand why he was chaced away.

skates94 · Dec 24, 2006

DeepSpring

I wish everything was black and white but we all know there is alot of gray area in the middle. For the most part you should be able to stand on "public" property and take photos of whatever makes your heart content BUT you may encounter some resistance. For example if you were to travel to Downtown Chicago and photograph the Sears Towers (tallest building in North America) you would probably be questioned as to why you are doing so and what your purpose with the photos is.

As someone stated earlier:
Carry a valid government issued id card w/you
Carry some of your work
Be polite and direct, if photography is your hobby and you enjoy taking pictures of pigeons on park benches.. then say so

If directed to move along...... I would suggest you do so. Even if your right. Many times a police officer may ask someone to do something and when that person does not do it they often find themselves being charged w/something..... disorderly conduct is usually the catch all.

Hope this helps

eddiesimages · Dec 28, 2006

I completely agree with Skates94. I also am a police officer and have been for 23 years. A person's attitude is everything. Not just with taking photos, but in all situations. If you're polite and can explain why you are taking photos most reasonable officers will understand and won't harass you. If you have an attitude and start off the conversation with something like ' it's none of your business, I'm in a public place and I have a right to do it', you're going to have trouble. Most officers are just trying to do their job and in today's world part of that job is watching for any suspicious activity, such as photographing buildings. You never know, the reason an officer even approaches you could be because some citizen called and made a complaint about suspicious activity and he has to approach you. Most officers are just regular guys trying to do a job and like Skates94 said, if you give respect you will get it back.

Orgnoi1 · Dec 28, 2006

I am going to make a bold statement... so sorry if I offend anyone...

but in reading the last few posts I am just going to say this...

What has this world come to? Since when has photography been a suspicious event or a crime? I fully understand that everyone has jobs to do... but it also does not give anyone the right to "kick someone out" of public property for doing nothing wrong. I am the most polite person anyone will meet... in person... but it really boils my "you-know-whats" when people who are misinformed about the law are the same people upholding it. No offense to the two officers that posted... obviously both of you are photographers or you wouldnt be here in the first place. But something as simple as taking a picture in broad daylight of the Sears Tower shouldnt be even insinuated as a crime. A simple terry stop for such an issue should NEVER result in someone having to move off the public location or stop doing a harmless hobby.

When we stop allowing our citizens from doing harmless hobbies such as photography we may as well succumb to the terrorists... for they have already won.

eddiesimages · Dec 28, 2006

It is sad what the world has become. But photography has indeed become a suspicious activity. Not long ago a person was stopped in Charlotte, NC, not 20 miles from my home for doing nothing but taking photos of uptown buildings. Turns out the person was linked to Al Kaida. He was using those very photographs for terrorist activities. He was tried and convicted for plotting to blow up some buildings. We cannot close our eyes to anything during these trying times.

xfloggingkylex · Dec 28, 2006

flyinsalt said:
It is sad what the world has become. But photography has indeed become a suspicious activity. Not long ago a person was stopped in Charlotte, NC, not 20 miles from my home for doing nothing but taking photos of uptown buildings. Turns out the person was linked to Al Kaida. He was using those very photographs for terrorist activities. He was tried and convicted for plotting to blow up some buildings. We cannot close our eyes to anything during these trying times.

sadly you get the super hero cop who feels the need to throw his (or her) weight around, flaunting their authority as if they were some higher power. It's sad that a few of these hotshots can ruin the reputation of the people who serve and protect the people, and I want to emphasize serve and protect.

Luckily I haven't had any run-ins with police asking (or telling) me to leave, so I can't throw in any personal experience.

table1349 · Dec 28, 2006

Having read and followed this thread and others like it there seems to be one reoccuring theme in the stories of people being stopped and questioned. It doen't for the most part seem to be the police, rather private security personel. (You notice I didn't use the word Officer) In my 25 years as an officer/detective it has become abundantly clear that private security personel DO NOT know the law or their boundries under the law.

In my jurisdiction All security personel that work outside of a single business, must attend a training and be licensed by my department. Most of the single businesses that employ their own personel also run their people through our class and have them licensed. We teach them the several things including the law, especially in regards to what they can and can not do.

It has saved my department from many a headache, and for those that fail to learn, they quickly loose their license, resulting in the loss of their job.

The simple fact remains, If you are in Public on Public property, you have the right to be there and to take pictures. If a law enforcement officer approaches you, be polite, be precise with your answers, show your identification happily and explain what you are doing in a calm, polite manner. If you are approached by some sort of security personel, be calm, be polite and ask them to call a law enforcement officer if you have the time and the desire to photograph what you were intending to. Or dial 911 yourself. If you do so, be prepared to wait and follow the above suggestions about contact with a Law Enforcement Officer.

They know when they have overstepped their bounds and it will most likely resolve the situation before the need of a law enforcement officer. I suspect that the person mentioned above with the video equipment fled, rather than being chased off because they did not know better.

If by chance you are detained by the security personel and they make it clear that you are not free to leave, do not resist them. Rather wait for the law enforcement officer to resolve the immediate situation. If you are unlawfully detained by some security personel, remember, your name will look good on the sign for that shopping mall or highrise. (Ther are legal, civil remidies for such being detained wrongfully by some security personel)