Well Then, Shall We Just Let the Blind Lead the Blind?

[vtf]

You guys can rant all you want but from someone who really appreciates your critiques, a Sincere Thank You!
There are too many great helpers to list and I'm sure I'd leave someone out so understand when I create a thread I look for each of you to comment, to me it's an honor whether it's good or bad. Most of those I admire have already posted here, a few still haven't.
Thank You again.
:thumbup:

 

[Vtec44]

If it's not because of this forum, I would still be out there thinking I'm this generation's Ansel Adams! lol j/k But yeah, I do actually put in some thoughts when taking a photo because of all the "rudeness" here. I don't want to get my ass chewed out for posting crap. hahahah

 

[Robin Usagani]

mc1979, you are too nice to put my name on that list. Really, I post a lot because just like you, I am bored at work (read my signature). Just like MWC2, I picked up my camera in April 2010. So really, I am just a noob.

Yes, I am very guilty with all of the drama on this forum, what can I do to fix this?

 

[manaheim]

heh. A variation on the other thread... sorta.

I think everyone sorta beats around the bush on this all the time because they're trying to be nice or something, but cutting right to the bone... here it is...

The average poster on here is, as someone said, looking for a pat on the back... not really looking to learn so much as looking to receive affirmation that they're god-like photo abilities that they picked up in the past three months makes them the A#1 best candidate to be a wedding photographer, mom with camera, whatever.

There's a second level here... slightly smaller than the first... that are people who have gone beyond the total amateur level, but are basically sophomores in photography. They know enough to know that they're better than the total noobs, but don't know enough to know how little they know. These people are a dangerous group because they come across with great wisdom, but really have essentially no clue what they're talking about... and the first group listens to them. They poison people's minds by making them think stupid things like a single bit of overexposure kills the image, or that the photo must always be analyzed against the rule of thirds, or whatever. They absolutely cripple people with their technical nitpicks and "I like this photo, therefore it is good" foolishness.

There are people on here with a ton of clue, but mostly they keep quiet. For many, It's just not worth the irritation of dealing with all the ignorance and arrogance.

As some oldsters around here will say "It was different before"... I certainly felt that way, as I learned a TON from being on here way back when... but as I've had to actually UN-LEARN quite a bit of the corrupted ideas this forum tends to drive into people, I wonder if perhaps it really wasn't all that different after all.

 

[Geaux]

Here's the only thing I'll add to this thread. It's the thing I think about the most when I see the regulars around here jumping on noobs for asking the same questions over and over. I especially love it when others on here jump on the noobs for asking VERY basic questions about exposure, flash, etc.

Here is the description of this forums:

"Brand new to photography, or brushing up on some of the basics? Don’t be shy! Talk to other beginners and ask all your basic photographic questions here. Show us some of the photos you have taken so far and get some review - so you can learn where there is room for improvement!"

No wonder noobs ask basic questions, maybe they should change it to "Search your basic questions before asking.."

On the other hand, I've learned a lot from these forums. Mostly from reading others critiques, judging what others do wrong, reading articles online etc. I've posted quite a few photo threads for CC with minimal CC, but it is what it is. I'm not part of the "clique" yet lol

 

[mickmac]

There's nothing wrong with taking the piss out of someone if it's done in a friendly way.

 

[OrionsByte]

I've never understood why someone would take the time to register for a forum, wait for the confirmation email, compose a post, and wait for responses instead of just typing a few words in to Google. It seriously perplexes me.

Yes, this is the age of entitlement when everyone in their 30's and down thinks that they somehow deserve to be coddled through everything, combined with a bizarre form of laziness where people will go to an absurd amount of effort to avoid... effort. It's "the customer is always right" run amok. "You have it, I need it, what's the problem?"

This is not the only forum (or general community for that matter) to exhibit this behavior - it happens everywhere. Pick a random video game and lurk in the forums for a while. People may be asking what weapon or character class is "the best" instead of what camera to buy, but the underlying theme is exactly the same. They want the benefits or knowledge without the legwork.

There was another post on TPF a while back... I can't remember who said it (it's probably been said more than once anyways) but the gist of it was, "Why should I put more effort in to critiquing your photo than you put in to taking it?" I think that's the disconnect between the newbies and the seasoned members, in this community or any other. The neophytes honestly expect someone to come in and write sixteen paragraphs about photographic theory and artistic expression to explain the technical and aesthetic high and low points of the two dozen photos they posted, so when what they get instead is, "Out of focus, underexposed, centered," they think you're being rude. I'll put that differently - it's not necessarily what is being said, it's how it's being said; the terseness of it. I mean, how dare you not spend half your day personally escorting them through their journey to become the next Big Photographer! How dare you summarize your critique in five words when you could have written five pages! It's right back to that entitlement attitude - as far as they're concerned, they deserve a lengthy response from a seasoned pro. "You have the knowledge, I need it, what's the problem? You're an ass!"

That doesn't mean we should do anything differently; I don't think it's in humanity's best interest to foster that kind of attitude. The only suggestion I have for people like Kundalini who get fed up with people taking issue with their critiques is just to let it go. I've walked away from more than a couple arguments on one thread or another because it's just not worth my time to bicker with someone over some misunderstood statement or differing opinion. I'm also more than willing to admit when I made a mistake if necessary, but I [try to] resist the urge to try to get the last word in or become defensive, because in the end I don't care what that person thinks of me.

There's one other thing to consider as well though. One comment that I see a lot, and Kundalini kind of hinted at, is "why are you even in the beginner's forum?" I think some people expect to drop in to the beginner's forum and be critiqued by their peers and not their superiors. They figure that with enough blind people, eventually they'll all get somewhere, and they'll all start to see just a little, and then they can keep progressing from peer group to peer group. They think to themselves, "Where can I go to be with other photographers of similar skill level?" So the beginner's forum becomes this false "safe haven" where people who might even know that they're not very good yet figure they can post their photos without fear of being ridiculed by someone far more talented. It might come as a bit of a shock to them to see professional-level critiques coming at them when they expected beginner-level critiques. Does that make sense? Again, I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to do anything about it, but I think it's helpful to see things from their perspective sometimes, and I think this is just one possible newbie perspective (though it's far less common than the entitlement crowd).

I'm really glad that there are some seasoned folks on here that really know what they're doing that are willing to spend some time with people who are just starting out. Thing is though, if they're not receptive to your help, they are not your responsibility. Go ahead and preach, but if they don't want to hear the sermon, don't bother condemning to hell - they'll get there on their own.

 

[DDGphotos]

I love it ALL you give me all the JERKS, Rude, angry, and the bitter Wanna-bee's! ! ! ! I might be a newbe to THIS SITE, but when you see my locations I get sent to shoot OR BETTER WHO I SHOOT - I will be happy to share tips, trade secrets, and experience! ! ! !


MU HAHAHAHAHA

 

[Raian-san]

We are all guilty of it. There is NOO median in this forum. Either the photos is really good that people comment on, or photos that are bad people comment on. There's no in-between on here.

You complain about it but all the "Pros" responds to the newbie threads a lot more than to help average photographer in their thread. If you really want to improve this community, then respond to people who actually have done their work and actually trying to improve their photos instead of wasting your time trying to improve people who just signed up for the day and never even come back to their own thread. I'm new myself but whenever I post up something, I rarely get responds or encouragement to make me want to improve. When I first started, I would get a lot more respond when my pictures are pretty bad.

This is one of the reason I don't even care much about this forum anymore. People can't even showcase their photos to people and having people responds unless it's something bad. Why can't you encourage them and tell them their photos is alright, make some adjustment and etc. You guys only respond to people who's begging in needs of your advice. Spend more time actually helping the people who's actually dedicating to improve their work.

 

[c.cloudwalker]

I think we are all guilty including you K. .....

Guilty of what, exactly. Starting a ***** fest? Although it's still fairly sharp, my memory does fail me from time to time. Please point me to the errors of my ways Schwetty.

How about http://www.thephotoforum.com/forum/...-then-shall-we-just-let-blind-lead-blind.html ?

 

[Overread36]

I've never understood why someone would take the time to register for a forum, wait for the confirmation email, compose a post, and wait for responses instead of just typing a few words in to Google. It seriously perplexes me.

Google requires that you know the right question to ask to get the right answer and that you already know certain key facts in order to be able to filter the search results that it gives you. And simply put, many newer people to a hobby simply don't know the right question to ask - ergo they ask someone rather than something (there is also the social aspect in that people prefer to ask people not machines).

"Why should I put more effort in to critiquing your photo than you put in to taking it?"

To my mind the more important question is why do you feel that you should do? This line always comes back to the same argument that the person making it is bored with the current dominate forum thread content, and yet is unable/unwilling to generate their own discussions. Thus they take their bored rage out on the people who are forming less than stella threads or less than ideal threads (in the persons own opinion).
There is no pressure for anyone to answer any thread on the site and learning the simple method of self filtering what to and what not to reply to is a good measure. If you find that the site no longer is giving you the threads you want you can either slip away or generate your own - there are many here who clearly want this "higher level" discussions, but only a few of them seem willing to actually put the effort into starting them.

I mean, how dare you not spend half your day personally escorting them through their journey to become the next Big Photographer! How dare you summarize your critique in five words when you could have written five pages! It's right back to that entitlement attitude - as far as they're concerned, they deserve a lengthy response from a seasoned pro. "You have the knowledge, I need it, what's the problem? You're an ass!"

Actually this kind of response only comes when people ask a question and are told to go ask it somewhere else (ie go google it - which when you think of it is a way of saying to that person that they are not welcome on the site).

 

[shortpants]

I'm pretty new here, but not to photography, not that that makes me any good either I appreciate those who take the time to give honest feedback. Obviously that's not what everyone is looking for, given the amount of drive by posters who never return. I just wouldn't bother with them, it's a waste of time. Give advice to those who want it. :thumbup:

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

This forum is a huge database of information. Just like a library. In a library, there is a librarian, and a card catalogue. If you continually walk by the card catalogue, and go straight to the librarian, I am sure the librarian will eventually point you to the card catalogue. The librarian is NOT there to walk each patron directly to the information they seek. In school, everyone should have been taught how to do research. In higher education, there are required courses for credit that are "Independant Study".

What I see here, and on other forums is just sheer LAZINESS. People here want exact answers to specific questions and are not willing to do some leg work, and get a well rounded, deeper understanding of the subject. As a result their knowledge is very shallow and pretty useless.

The photo forum will only get people so far. They will platuea quickly at an average level. People come on here everyday and say they have Passion for photography. But they don't, really. It just sounds cool. If they were truly that passionate, they would be spending their time elsewhere, gather as much information as the can, from better sources.

 

[Village Idiot]

Yup, this forum is interesting.

It's a range from complete idiots, not worth your time, to those very eager to learn and have valuable discussions with.

It's a range of people best ignored, to the best to listen too.

It's a range of class clowns to boring always serious people.

It's a group of people that complain about drama, but continually add to it, and act all innocent.

Yup, this forum is made up of people of all kinds.

Much like the real world.

You can even choose to ignore people you don't like, or argue with them, just like real life!

Is this a multiple choice personality test?

 

[Robin Usagani]

Hmmm.. Ok? Just based on this response alone, I have a feeling you are here just to troll.

I love it ALL you give me all the JERKS, Rude, angry, and the bitter Wanna-bee's! ! ! ! I might be a newbe to THIS SITE, but when you see my locations I get sent to shoot OR BETTER WHO I SHOOT - I will be happy to share tips, trade secrets, and experience! ! ! !


MU HAHAHAHAHA