Successful Criticism

[Hertz van Rental]

This is not TheProfessors'Forum

I would beg to differ. If you remember Chase originally created this particular forum for me :lmao:

 

[LaFoto]

No, I don't remember that, and I've been here for more than half a year longer than you have :greenpbl: ... but hey, you are the first to say there's no room here for

BIG EGOs​

which is why your assumption soooooooooooooooooooooo fits, of course! ​

 

[Mike_E]

scholar
n 1: a learned person (especially in the humanities); someone who
by long study has gained mastery in one or more
disciplines [syn: scholarly person, student]
2: someone (especially a child) who learns (as from a teacher)
or takes up knowledge or beliefs [syn: learner, assimilator]
3: a student who holds a scholarship

No one to my knowledge has ever been given an education by anyone. It is entirely up to the student to acquire any and all information. Unless you could crack open some one's head and pour it in there won't be any given either.

With all due respect, a degree only says that you have convinced someone that you have done the work, not that you have actually done it. I will grant that paying someone else to show you how something is done makes learning far easier than going solo! None the less going solo is doable and the only option for many.

Tag ya'll

 

[JerryPH]

I am amazed, though, that people appear to be proud of being self-taught.
Would you let a doctor near you with a knife, or let a tradesman loose in your home if they announced that they were self-taught and had got it all out of a book?
I know I wouldn't.
So why should Photography be any different?* :mrgreen:

Because if I miss a picture, a life is not placed in peril in comparison to someone dissecting a liver or performing a kidney removal? :lmao:

The LAST thing I would want to hear in surgury is... "DRAT, cut the wrong kidney out, ok, let me raise ISO, recompose and try again..."

Comparing a doctor to a photographer is not really a good example.

I'm definitely not poo-poo-ing on a formal education, however proof shows that many more professionals have no formal education in it than those that do. Recent look-arounds at many professional photography organizations places it at somewhere between 70-80 % self-taught vs those with a formal education in photography.

 

[JerryPH]

Photo critique is a touchy business

... for those not ready to receive a critique.

I believe it should be polite and by no means discouraging, and above all constructive. Plain rude critique that is derogatory to the photographer, though it happens rarely, should be heavily frowned upon.

We're all big boys and big girls here. I see NOTHING wrong with someone saying "your pic SUCKS and is the WORST picture I have ever seen..." if this is what the person doing the critique sincerely feels... as long as it follows with:

"... and the technical reasons are... my opinions are... and form an artistic standpoint it..."

It SHOULD finish with: "here are specific things you should consider looking at, A. B C, and in the future try this and this and this... finally, I did like *this* aspect of your pic".

If someone cannot take that... its time they wait a few more birthdays past the 5th one to post asking for a critique. Their response SHOULD be... "thank-you for the effort you put in your critique" and END OF STORY. The rest happens in the background where you take what you want, learn and chuck the rest in the (as the french say) "POO-belle" (phonetic french for garbage bin... lol)

Whats so hard or touchy about this??

 

[Hertz van Rental]

however proof shows that many more professionals have no formal education in it than those that do. Recent look-arounds at many professional photography organizations places it at somewhere between 70-80 % self-taught vs those with a formal education in photography.

I don't know what proof you have seen but in the UK the majority of top photographers in Advertising and Editorial have had formal education.
If you include wedding photographers and the like then you may be right.
But that just says something unflattering about the requirements that type of photography
I have met a lot of big boys in the Photography world. Only one was self-taught and he was arrogant, opinionated and thought 'College boys' were beneath contempt - quite clearly a defense mechanism at work there.

OK. Don't want to compare doctor/photographer?
You can compare any profession you like to Photography and the answer comes out the same. If you are paying someone good money for something you would not feel particularly confident in their skills if you knew they had taught themselves. You would always go to someone with a recognised qualification for choice. I know I would.
So why should Photography be the exception?

 

[Chiller]

What if we are not asking for critique, and just enjoy showing our photos. Should I not even post our photos on forums then? Soundling like a good idea after reading this thread, especially on TPF. Or does this mean, I can only post in the Just for Fun gallery. No, Im not a suck, and I have also had enough birthdays to understand, and I can also handle critique.

 

[LaFoto]

If you are paying someone good money for something you would not feel particularly confident in their skills if you knew they had taught themselves. You would always go to someone with a recognised qualification for choice.

OK.
But you seem to be comparing apples with oranges now, for this thread is about how to put out a successful critique here (well, at least I think that's what abraxas wants to know), on this very forum, an internet forum, where most of us come to spend their pasttime, gain a bit of entertainment and form long-distance friendships (maybe) with people who share their passion. And here you need not be a professor of photography in order to comment on someone else's work. Here everyone's invited to say what they think about photos put out for the world to see them.

And it is just a matter of common sense, courtesy and a bit of empathy, and already you know how critiquing someone's photographic work can possibly work.

 

[Hertz van Rental]

OK.
But you seem to be comparing apples with oranges now, for this thread is about how to put out a successful critique here (well, at least I think that's what abraxas wants to know), on this very forum, an internet forum, where most of us come to spend their pasttime, gain a bit of entertainment and form long-distance friendships (maybe) with people who share their passion. And here you need not be a professor of photography in order to comment on someone else's work. Here everyone's invited to say what they think about photos put out for the world to see them.

It is you who seems to be getting confused.
I did not say that you had to be a professor to give a critique, only that being able to give a good critique is something that has to be learned.
Learning implies teaching. If you are learning something it stands to reason that the easiest way to learn is to be taught. And I think that people who have experience of 'proper' critique are well placed to impart their knowledge in this area to anyone interested.
Of course anyone can comment on another persons work - but making comments is not the same thing as giving a critique

 

[Overread]

What if we are not asking for critique, and just enjoy showing our photos. Should I not even post our photos on forums then? Soundling like a good idea after reading this thread, especially on TPF. Or does this mean, I can only post in the Just for Fun gallery. No, Im not a suck, and I have also had enough birthdays to understand, and I can also handle critique.

I thought the "Just for Fun" section was about for that very purpose - not just for the odd times when you got a cool shot or when you want to show off some pet shots that are less than your best, but great because its your cat leaping 5ft in the air. The rest of the sections are for crits (as well as general comments)

As for teaching and learning - one can learn a lot through the web and through books. One could also grab a mentor from the mentors list on this site (blatent, shamless self advertising) and then get some direction from another in photography. Granted this is nothing like getting a proper course education in photography or spending several years working as an understudy to a pro in the area you are best interested in -- but that is not to say you cannot learn a lot.
I think through self taught people can learn best how to approach a select area of photography whilst those who go through a school or university would pick up more general usage and understandings on the course

 

[dylj]

Here is the model for critiques in an online forum setting. It's very structured, very rigid, and not for everybody. I'm not saying it's the best way -- but I think a lot of people have been clamoring for something like this.

I've taken this from everypoet.org, "Poetry Free-for-all". I'll replace all relevant instances of "poem" with "photo", "poetry" with "photography", "writer" with "photographer".

1. PFFA is not a showcase. It is a photo workshop. That means work is to be posted here for only one reason: to receive comments that will help the photograher to improve the photo and to improve as a photographer. If that's what you're looking for, you've found it.

However, if all you're looking for is simply a place to show off your work, you haven't found what you're looking for, and you would be better advised to look elsewhere.

Here you will receive constructive comments on what needs to be done to your work to make it better. NOTE: "Constructive" does not necessarily mean complimentary, flattering, or pleasant; many are likely to be negative, even harsh. That is the nature of a workshop. You can't improve if you're just told that you're a good little photographer and get patted on the head. If you can't handle negative criticism, don't post. We mean it.

1b. The proper response to negative criticism is simple: "Thank you; I'll take your suggestions into consideration." No arguments, shouting, or self-defensive whining; these will simply get your thread moved to the "Outside" Forum where no one will comment on it. Repetitions will get you banned.

2. Because PFFA is a workshop, there are definite expectations regarding the use of language. In general, we expect all posters, whether poets, poetasters or critics, to do their best to ensure the correct use of basic grammar, spelling, punctuation, typography, and syntax in their posts. We're not a chatroom; we're a workshop that respects the best uses of the English language. Posts exhibiting numerous major errors or non-standard usages such as internet chatroom shorthand conventions will probably be deleted.

Artistic licence will, of course, be respected. However, don't be surprised if we need convincing that the licence is indeed artistic.

3. You may post 1 photo per forum per 24 hours. Posts in excess of 1 per 24 hours will be deleted on sight.

3 (b). Revised versions of photos should be posted in separate threads, clearly labelled as revisions of previously-posted pieces. Posted revisions are considered as separate photos and count in your "one-post-per-24-hours" tally. Each revision carries its own 3-crit obligation.

3 (c). Polls are not allowed on work posted to the critical forums.

3 (d). Do not post in all caps.

4. You are to comment on three others' work for each piece you post; your comments must be in the same forum as your own work is posted.

5. Comments are to be directed to the photo, not to other posters' comments or to idle chatting: "PFFA is not a chat room and 'fluff' comments are discouraged in the critical forums. Email and ICQ are wonderful things—use them for personal dialog."

6. A Note on the Critical Forums: The critical forums at PFFA are graduated, from "General" up to "Advanced C&C"; these graduations are based on two interrelated criteria: 1. the quality of the work, and where you post depends in part upon your skill and experience level; 2. the quality of the critiques you are capable of providing to others and these must meet the standards set forth in the following discussion of the various forums. Individuals whose work is not up to the standards of a particular forum or whose critiques fail to meet the forum requirements will be redirected to post in lower forums until they can satisfy the moderators they have improved sufficiently to post in higher-level forums. Most new posters will find their work is appropriate to "General" or the "C&C Forums," not the upper-level forums. Quite simply, it you don't know what a catalectic trochee is, don't understand what Eliot meant by "objective correlative," can't distinguish between a synecdoche and a metonymy, think heart, soul, 'tis, dost, and shard are good words to use in poems, believe that clichés and abstractions make a poem more "universal," and don't know the difference between its and it's, you're not ready to post in "High" or "Advanced C&C," so don't. And moderators will move work to lower-level forums if they feel it isn't up to the standards of the forum in which the writer has originally placed it.

"General"--This forum is the lowest level and is intended for beginners; the critiques here are usually very general remarks, not detailed analyses of problems. It is, in essence, the "Crit-Lite" forum. The level of critique required for the "General" and the various "Chaos" forums is explained in this thread. (NOTE: The "Chaos" forums are not considered "critical" forums.)

"C&C" and "Scansion Mansion"--The intermediate-level forums for those with some experience who wish to begin seriously the process of learning to improve their work. The specific forum guidelines are here:

The C&C Forums

and the requirements for critique there are found inthis thread and the link it contains to andrea345's critique.

Scansion Mansion"--This forum is specifically for metrical verse, as its guidelines make clear:

Scansion Mansion

"Charon's Schooner"--This is a transition forum from the C&C-level forums to the "Advanced C&C" forum. It is a specialized forum for concentrated work involving multiple revisions over a lengthy period of time of a single work which has demonstrated it has promise. Entrance into this forum requires a solid basis of previous experience:

Charon's Leaky Schooner

"High" and "Advanced C&C/Merciless" -- These forums are for the most experienced writers and for work that is very near publication quality. The "High" forum guidelines are here and the Advanced C&C Guidelines are here. The level of critique required in "Advanced C&C" and "Underground C&C" is explained in these two threads:

Careful Reading and Critique: Focus & Filters

Critique Guidelines: Focus & Filters Crib Sheet


7. For those who are less experienced writers (and that includes the majority of those who post here), you might wish to visit Transition Triage either to read or to take part in the exercise sessions.

8. PFFA is a moderated board; that means several things:

A. If the moderators feel that you have posted above your current abilities, they can, and often do, move your poem to a lower critical forum or lock the thread and direct you to post elsewhere.

B. Moderators may step in from time to time and comment off-topic if the discussion in the thread needs to be directed back toward the topic, or if the remarks made are decidedly uninformed.

C. We at reserve the right to delete any message at any time for any or no reason whatsoever.

--

For those who don't like to read: Basically, there are levels of critique forums: Going from beginner to advanced. A person who posts a poem (photo) in the advanced forum must also post at least three critiques in that forum. Both the photo and the critiques must be "advanced" quality. Critiques usually take 30 minutes to an hour to write. Moderators are very aggressive in moving/deleting posts if they determine that a critique or poem is not up to par.

As I said earlier, I'm not claiming that this is the best system. This is just to give a taste of the other extreme that abraxas and others might be interested in.

 

[abraxas]

...

As I said earlier, I'm not claiming that this is the best system. This is just to give a taste of the other extreme that abraxas and others might be interested in.

Sounds hideous- too many words.

 

[Chris of Arabia]

Ditto that - sounds more like an exam than a forum - 'scuse me if we don't.

 

[Mike_E]

Just to stir the coals, If one extrapolated Hertz's logic then one could assume that his insistence in believing that a formal education being the only real way to learn illustrates a need to justify his time spent in corporate education.








Yea, I've read Hemingway, why? LOLOLOL

 

[Chiller]

I thought the "Just for Fun" section was about for that very purpose -

I think I will just stay in there then. This forum has become for professionals only.