A Word About Politeness...

[terri35 6]

When in doubt go look at their Flickr page and/or website. If they rock....listen a bit more. If they suck....don't.

^^ But you see, this is where the failing occurs.

Read what Overread said here (boldface added by me):

Generally I'd say that when you're learning who to listen to ask questions; lots of questions. Don't just listen to the answer, ask for the explanation behind it. Sometimes it will show where someone is just parroting something - other times it might show someone who really does understand the reasoning behind something and that in turn will greatly help you.

As for theory VS practical its my experience in photography that there are many people who have skill that outstrips their understanding of the theory of that skill and vis versa. Yes sometimes you will find people who can critique better than they can shoot (actually considering that compositional theories can be easier to learn than to put into practice its not unusual). Sometimes that might mean that they don't know as much, but listen to their arguments for their viewpoints and base your choice of that

The suggestion that a newbie just look at someone's pictures to decide if they want to listen to their advice is too simplistic, as it does not take into account the above points. Not only that, but it assumes a newbie possesses the wherewithal to make a judgment call on someone else's images...making the argument somewhat contradictory.

It also does not give anyone a pass to be rude or condescending to anyone who is new here, learning or trying to learn. That is what we all see too much of, and that is what prompted Aaron's post. We have behavioral guidelines here at TPF, and we're all held to them.

Looking at someone else's work is only one tool in evaluating their creditworthiness. It is human nature.

No argument there. But it also leads to instant judgment by certain members, who disregard the other aspects involved, and remain dismissive and insulting to other members. Also human nature, but not pleasant. It's what gets people "sidetracked" sometimes (how's that for a euphemism?). ;-)

 

[cgipson1]

When in doubt go look at their Flickr page and/or website. If they rock....listen a bit more. If they suck....don't.

My thoughts... look at their images... If they talk a good show, but their images suck... are they someone you want to listen to?

^^ But you see, this is where the failing occurs.

Read what Overread said here (boldface added by me):

Generally I'd say that when you're learning who to listen to ask questions; lots of questions. Don't just listen to the answer, ask for the explanation behind it. Sometimes it will show where someone is just parroting something - other times it might show someone who really does understand the reasoning behind something and that in turn will greatly help you.

As for theory VS practical its my experience in photography that there are many people who have skill that outstrips their understanding of the theory of that skill and vis versa. Yes sometimes you will find people who can critique better than they can shoot (actually considering that compositional theories can be easier to learn than to put into practice its not unusual). Sometimes that might mean that they don't know as much, but listen to their arguments for their viewpoints and base your choice of that

The suggestion that a newbie just look at someone's pictures to decide if they want to listen to their advice is too simplistic, as it does not take into account the above points. Not only that, but it assumes a newbie possesses the wherewithal to make a judgment call on someone else's images...making the argument somewhat contradictory.

It also does not give anyone a pass to be rude or condescending to anyone who is new here, learning or trying to learn. That is what we all see too much of, and that is what prompted Aaron's post. We have behavioral guidelines here at TPF, and we're all held to them.

Admittedly, a rookie might not really know the difference between Great and good, or even good and Ok... but I do have faith that they can see BAD (even if they don't know WHY it is bad), and know the difference. At least enough to where it might give them a clue! And if they person they are curious about, doesn't even have images to post... that is a big clue too!

f they see images from someone, that are similar to what they are currently taking, is that "photographer" really someone that will be able to help them improve?

Can't they use where they are at.. as a guide to where they want to be? Basically look at images and say "(#1) I want to shoot images like that".. and " (#2) not like this"... so they should listen to #1 with more emphasis than #2?

 

[IByte]

don't worry, infractions come with a note attached to let you know what you did wrong. :mrgreen:

Are we talking about those super passive aggressive posted notes .....mr medic? lol

It's better than a temp ban though, right? :-D

If anything, I'd rather be taken in by officer Kathy and be punished by bad boy whip Mishy.

:greenpbl:

 

[mishele]

You don't know what you're asking for...:badangel:

 

[IByte]

You don't know what you're asking for...:badangel:

.....sooo that's your super adult term for " I dare you to misbehave" hmmm?

 

[Overread16 4]

IByte - its important to realise that this is not the result of people saying they don't want critique or that they don't like when people don't fawn over their photos. This is about when negative views are expressed in a way which is rude or inconsiderate of the member. Sometimes this is just wise cracks which are not intended to cause insult, but which can appear hostile/closed circle/insulting to people who are very new to the community. This in turn makes the community feel hostile toward new people and can make them leave the site.

Clearly we don't want an unfriendly forum and we want new members - both the new and the experienced. We can't attract either group if members are chased off or if the general ambient attitude is dismissive or hostile toward new members.

Forums always need an active recruitment of new members; that is to keep the community running; any community that closes itself up inevitably dies as people get torn away by other things or take up new hobbies.

 

[terri35 6]

Admittedly, a rookie might not really know the difference between Great and good, or even good and Ok... but I do have faith that they can see BAD (even if they don't know WHY it is bad), and know the difference. I At least enough to where it might give them a clue! And if they person they are curious about, doesn't even have images to post... that is a big clue too!

f they see images from someone, that are similar to what they are currently taking, is that "photographer" really someone that will be able to help them improve?

Can't they use where they are at.. as a guide to where they want to be? Basically look at images and say "(#1) I want to shoot images like that".. and " (#2) not like this"... so they should listen to #1 with more emphasis than #2?

That's expecting a lot from someone who is brand new, isn't it? All I am trying to do is point out the other aspect that Overread mentions, that people should not automatically be dismissed based on lack of posted work or a newbie's assessment of what is posted. Seems self-defeating, since a newbie simply lacks the knowledge to understand what makes an image good. That is part of why they are here, to learn the difference.

What the point of this thread is, is how we interact with said newbie. Will the newbie get ripped for posting their own poor work, having the audacity to think they're improving? Or will the newbie get ripped for linking to someone else's "perceived by them" excellent work, and ask how to emulate that work, which more advanced photogs might believe to be crap? Either way it is the newbie's lack of knowledge that gets them bullied and run off from the forum, which is usually exposed within the first 20-odd posts, as Aaron mentioned. It's been lose/lose around here if you are a newbie, that is the point.

 

[jake337]

Just another day at TPF, eh? Well back to the kids I go!

 

[PixelRabbit]

What if you want to ask particular someone about their opinion because their saying are backed up with doing?

I find nothing wrong with sending someone a message politely asking them to take a look at your shot including why you are asking them, ie. you value their opinion. I've done it a couple times and have gotten great feedback from the people.

I can't imagine anyone not being at least a little tickled that someone valued their opinion enough to actively seek it out.

 

[IByte]

IByte - its important to realise that this is not the result of people saying they don't want critique or that they don't like when people don't fawn over their photos. This is about when negative views are expressed in a way which is rude or inconsiderate of the member. Sometimes this is just wise cracks which are not intended to cause insult, but which can appear hostile/closed circle/insulting to people who are very new to the community. This in turn makes the community feel hostile toward new people and can make them leave the site.

Clearly we don't want an unfriendly forum and we want new members - both the new and the experienced. We can't attract either group if members are chased off or if the general ambient attitude is dismissive or hostile toward new members.

Forums always need an active recruitment of new members; that is to keep the community running; any community that closes itself up inevitably dies as people get torn away by other things or take up new hobbies.

Hmmm the dog on your avatar seems to make sense, yes, yes. Even jocks can learn lol!!! Thanks for the clarification Over, I'm blaming Mish on this one..that's my story and I am sticking to it!

 

[IByte]

What if you want to ask particular someone about their opinion because their saying are backed up with doing?

I find nothing wrong with sending someone a message politely asking them to take a look at your shot including why you are asking them, ie. you value their opinion. I've done it a couple times and have gotten great feedback from the people.

I can't imagine anyone not being at least a little tickled that someone valued their opinion enough to actively seek it out.

Lil' bunny don't we have the unofficial super secret mentor program O.O, I'm also a client. :albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino::albino:

 

[Designer]

...I do have faith that they can see BAD...

The faith is strong in this one!

 

[mishele]

What if you want to ask particular someone about their opinion because their saying are backed up with doing?

I find nothing wrong with sending someone a message politely asking them to take a look at your shot including why you are asking them, ie. you value their opinion. I've done it a couple times and have gotten great feedback from the people.

I can't imagine anyone not being at least a little tickled that someone valued their opinion enough to actively seek it out.

I've done this many times. I've always gotten great feedback. =)

 

[IByte]

I'm a newbie, and still here. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment, but I understand the true point, and knowing is half the battle lol.

 

[cgipson1]

Admittedly, a rookie might not really know the difference between Great and good, or even good and Ok... but I do have faith that they can see BAD (even if they don't know WHY it is bad), and know the difference. I At least enough to where it might give them a clue! And if they person they are curious about, doesn't even have images to post... that is a big clue too!

f they see images from someone, that are similar to what they are currently taking, is that "photographer" really someone that will be able to help them improve?

Can't they use where they are at.. as a guide to where they want to be? Basically look at images and say "(#1) I want to shoot images like that".. and " (#2) not like this"... so they should listen to #1 with more emphasis than #2?

That's expecting a lot from someone who is brand new, isn't it? All I am trying to do is point out the other aspect that Overread mentions, that people should not automatically be dismissed based on lack of posted work or a newbie's assessment of what is posted. Seems self-defeating, since a newbie simply lacks the knowledge to understand what makes an image good. That is part of why they are here, to learn the difference.

What the point of this thread is, is how we interact with said newbie. Will the newbie get ripped for posting their own poor work, having the audacity to think they're improving? Or will the newbie get ripped for linking to someone else's "perceived by them" excellent work, and ask how to emulate that work, which more advanced photogs might believe to be crap? Either way it is the newbie's lack of knowledge that gets them bullied and run off from the forum, which is usually exposed within the first 20-odd posts, as Aaron mentioned. It's been lose/lose around here if you are a newbie, that is the point.

Non-Professional (amateur / enthusiast) newbies don't get ripped or blasted....

It is only the "I'm a professional (Rebel or similar, kit lens, no flash, under / overexposed, OOF, bad DOF, Bad WB, Bad Comp, don't charge much because I am learning, check out my prices on facebook) Newbies" that usually catch a significant amount of flak!

So we shouldn't be telling these BAD professionals how bad they are? Right?

Seriously, how often does the average (non self proclaimed PRO) newbie get flack? I would be curious to see the numbers... I know I would rather help that type of newbie... and usually do. (serious question... really)