Are you born with it?

[Overread15 3]

Bitter - I don't see many saying that everyone can achieve equal status, but more that they are saying that most people of sound mind can achieve a similar standard of decent performance in many crafts in life, provided that they are receptive to and learn the content (ie put in the effort). It's more the respect of the fact that a good standard in most things is possible by most people - granted they might well lack the flare of talent to push the boundaries of their craft or to refine its process; but will at least be able to do a passable job.

Which is why we have our average workers - our builders - doctors - lawyers - and (dare I say it) artists who grind and work away at the general level. Once in a while they might well do some excellent work and - through experience - improve with time.

This does nothing to discredit the fact that we also have those people who are capable of taking things "to the next level" who find it easier to work in certain areas than others and who are able to perform to a higher standard or to push things further or in new directions.

 

[vfotog]

Bitter - I don't see many saying that everyone can achieve equal status, but more that they are saying that most people of sound mind can achieve a similar standard of decent performance in many crafts in life, provided that they are receptive to and learn the content (ie put in the effort). It's more the respect of the fact that a good standard in most things is possible by most people - granted they might well lack the flare of talent to push the boundaries of their craft or to refine its process; but will at least be able to do a passable job.

Which is why we have our average workers - our builders - doctors - lawyers - and (dare I say it) artists who grind and work away at the general level. Once in a while they might well do some excellent work and - through experience - improve with time.

This does nothing to discredit the fact that we also have those people who are capable of taking things "to the next level" who find it easier to work in certain areas than others and who are able to perform to a higher standard or to push things further or in new directions.

actually, several of the posters indeed did say that there is NO innate talent, that it's all hard work and practice. and that you could even achieve a 10 based solely on work and no natural abilities. I don't think anyone mentioned having just "decent" results.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

actually, several of the posters indeed did say that there is NO innate talent, that it's all hard work and practice. and that you could even achieve a 10 based solely on work and no natural abilities.

Oh my god! There are even studies and books written proving that, and that all other books and studies suggesting otherwise are wrong!

 

[spacefuzz]

actually, several of the posters indeed did say that there is NO innate talent, that it's all hard work and practice. and that you could even achieve a 10 based solely on work and no natural abilities.

Oh my god! There are even studies and books written proving that, and that all other books and studies suggesting otherwise are wrong!

Thats awesome you have achieved such success bitter, and clearly it is realated to a great work ethic and having business skills. What caused you to get better than your competitors? Was it practicing things you were bad at to improve and increase your market share? (artistic skills) Was it working to build a good reputation and happy client base? (business skills). These are skills that can be learned and taught and improved. Your competitors could theoretically do the same, why dont they? I argue it isnt because you were born more talented, its because you have a drive to succeed and improve yourself. Perhaps they dont want to put in the time to re-invent their business, or just dont care that they are mediocre. What sets the best achievers apart from the ho hum achievers is the amount of practice they put in, and how dedicated they are to push themselves onward when it gets hard.

For people who are top of their game, this isnt an insult to you it just means that YOU work harder/smarter than your competition. Shouldnt that be more fulfilling than "I was born with it"?

So if you want to say some people are born driven.....I may agree with that. Although I have seen anectdotal evidence that drive can be mainly a product of your environment.

 

[bennielou]

Oh hell. We just started a whole NEW conversation......how to take inate talent, pair it with technical logic, and then throw some business skills into the mix.
My head (or at least the 74% side) will now surely explode. I'm an arteeeeest damnin! (Or so the survey said)

 

[spacefuzz]

Oh hell. We just started a whole NEW conversation......how to take inate talent, pair it with technical logic, and then throw some business skills into the mix.
My head (or at least the 74% side) will now surely explode. I'm an arteeeeest damnin! (Or so the survey said)

yes...ugh business.

At least I do landscape photography and the "Business of Photography" book I was looking at in Barnes & Noble only had a paragraph on the subject. I think maybe perhaps possibly I could learn that much......

 

[bennielou]

Heck if we throw business into the mix, we have a whole other bag of tricks.

Over the last decade, the last few years especially, I've seen some STRONG people go out of business. I don't know if they didn't know how to sell (doubtful because they have been selling for years), got burned out, didn't roll with the punches regarding the newer photography styles, didn't fit their market to the fit the new economy.....I don't know. I was seriously dumbfounded to see many of my friends go out business this year.

However, I will say, knowing how to sell is JUST as important as the photography aspect. After all, you won't be shooting squat, for any amount of reasonable money (anyone can GIVE IT AWAY), if you don't know how to close the deal in the first place.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

actually, several of the posters indeed did say that there is NO innate talent, that it's all hard work and practice. and that you could even achieve a 10 based solely on work and no natural abilities.

Oh my god! There are even studies and books written proving that, and that all other books and studies suggesting otherwise are wrong!

Thats awesome you have achieved such success bitter, and clearly it is realated to a great work ethic and having business skills. What caused you to get better than your competitors? Was it practicing things you were bad at to improve and increase your market share? (artistic skills) Was it working to build a good reputation and happy client base? (business skills). These are skills that can be learned and taught and improved. Your competitors could theoretically do the same, why dont they? I argue it isnt because you were born more talented, its because you have a drive to succeed and improve yourself. Perhaps they dont want to put in the time to re-invent their business, or just dont care that they are mediocre. What sets the best achievers apart from the ho hum achievers is the amount of practice they put in, and how dedicated they are to push themselves onward when it gets hard.

I have rather poor business skills. And never took a business class or economics class in my life. Maybe it just came naturally? I actually have had terrible work ethics, and make poor choices and put myself in a bind all the time. What you are doing is making all kinds of assumptions to prove your point. Metal work came pretty natural to me. I can't say that I had to "work hard" at getting good at it at all. I never struggled to get better. I've learned a lot of skills on my own just by "figuring it out". I never had to work hard to get A's in any various art medium in school. What I did struggle with was acedemics. I had to work hard to get C's.

For people who are top of their game, this isnt an insult to you it just means that YOU work harder/smarter than your competition. Shouldnt that be more fulfilling than "I was born with it"?

I still say you are making assumptions. It is just as easy to assume that there is just natural talent. I can't say that I worked harder than anyone. How do you quantify that? What if what I don't see as hard work, or intense drive, is to someone else. That tells me it just comes naturally. I would say I didn't work hard to get where I am at all. I just worked. Long hours doesn't equate to hard work.

As far as your study with your wife...I find it flawed. Because she shows improvement, you will naturally say it supports your claim that it is practice and hard work, while I would say she already had some innate ability, and you are opening that door. To do this study properly, you need to take a larger sample of people, and give them equal time and practice, and they should all achieve the same results in regards to getting better. But then, we can look at schools and education...primarily at the college level, where people tend to select their majors according to their passions and interests...some fail, some are average, and some succeed, all given the same material, same teaching, same time....

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Fantastic discussion, BTW.

 

[GeorgieGirl]

Some people are born lucky; having success or advantage especially when it is unexpected. So yes, I think you are born with it.

 

[spacefuzz]

If I made assumptions, my bad. However the success of your business Bitter clearly defies your own description of your business skills.

A case study to ponder, Laszlo Polgar (László Polgár - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) a psychologist who wanted to run an experiment about talent, actually recruited a wife and raised 3 daughters to be highly ranked chess players. He trained them from a very young age and Susan was olympic chess champion, Sofia is an international master, and Judit is an international grandmaster (by age 15!).

there is some data to noodle over, and doubters better produce statistical data showing the liklihood of 3 sisters being chess masters

 

[mishele]

Ok, let's look at it this way.....savants are extremely gifted "talented" in certain areas, while they lack greatly in others.
These type of things happen over and over in extreme cases. Why can't we suggest that they happen on a regular basis in every individual, just to a lesser degree?

 

[vfotog]

If I made assumptions, my bad. However the success of your business Bitter clearly defies your own description of your business skills.

A case study to ponder, Laszlo Polgar (László Polgár - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) a psychologist who wanted to run an experiment about talent, actually recruited a wife and raised 3 daughters to be highly ranked chess players. He trained them from a very young age and Susan was olympic chess champion, Sofia is an international master, and Judit is an international grandmaster (by age 15!).

there is some data to noodle over, and doubters better produce statistical data showing the liklihood of 3 sisters being chess masters

it doesn't prove anything. they were trained from a very young age. it's not even remotely random, so statistical data on the general population would be meaningless. they were programmed from a young age, so it doesn't prove your point at all. no one has said that you can't improve your skills. that's not the same as your denying that people have innate talent to build upon. you tend to ignore most of the points people make. to basically repeat the question I asked before, you're saying if you worked hard enough, you could possess the skills of Bach, Sinatra, Picasso, Hawking all at once? Wow. Do you remember being a child? Taking an art or music class? Hell, any class? Where some kids were, before all the years of motivation, hard work and training you talk about, better at some things than the other kids? Some that could draw or sing or do math better than the others? Can you honestly say that all the kids were identical in talent and skills and abilities and speed in learning everything?

 

[spacefuzz]

it doesn't prove anything. they were trained from a very young age. it's not even remotely random, so statistical data on the general population would be meaningless. they were programmed from a young age, so it doesn't prove your point at all.

But it does prove the point, they practiced in a methodical and deliberate manner (because their father found to qualms with using his children as an experiment), and as a result all 3 ended up being at the top of their field. The point of this discussion is going from a 1 to a 10 in photography, if you can train your children from a 1 to a 10 in chess, why not with a camera?

no one has said that you can't improve your skills.

And I havnt been arguing that, Ive been trying to show people that they shouldnt sell themselves short because if they put in the work they can become a 10.

that's not the same as your denying that people have innate talent to build upon. you tend to ignore most of the points people make. to basically repeat the question I asked before, you're saying if you worked hard enough, you could possess the skills of Bach, Sinatra, Picasso, Hawking all at once? Wow.

The case I outlined shows that you dont need innate talent, you can train to be the best (if you want to put in the work). I dont think anyone would be able to argue a 2 yr old is a chess genious, but its at that age their father started training them.
If you had unlimited free time and didnt have to worry about work, friends, raising a family....sure you could become like Bach, Picasso, Hawking...etc. Practice for hours a day for 30 years and I'm sure you would be world class.

Do you remember being a child? Taking an art or music class? Hell, any class? Where some kids were, before all the years of motivation, hard work and training you talk about, better at some things than the other kids? Some that could draw or sing or do math better than the others? Can you honestly say that all the kids were identical in talent and skills and abilities and speed in learning everything?

I remember as a child I was told I was quite good at music, but it wasnt any fun so I didnt pursue it. Some kids were better, and the ones who really excelled in band practiced a lot, and they practiced what they needed to improve. My mother on the other hand plays piano at a decent level, but she never practices to improve only for enjoyment so hasnt gotten any better in the last 10 years. She might then improperly conclude she doesnt have the knack for it.

All kids are of course not identical in skills, but you need to look broad. What are the crossovers between different skill sets? If a parent loves baseball and drills their child constantly he will improve of course. Now if he switches to basketball and is better than his peers, is there the assumption oh is was born with talent in basketball! No, he learned to control his body and improve his coordination playing baseball and a large chunk of that knowledge was transferrable. Same with painting to photography, or martial arts where I have 10 years of experience. The first style was difficult to learn, but by the 4th I had developed enough coordination to be able to pick it up very quickly. Was I "gifted" in kung fu vs tae kwon do? Not likely.

I enjoyed this article: The Real Reason Why You’ll Never Be Mozart…or Victor Wooten | Deliberate Practice For Musicians
Especially this: "Most people like to believe in the ‘born talented’ concept because it gives them an excuse to fail."

 

[jake337]

If I made assumptions, my bad. However the success of your business Bitter clearly defies your own description of your business skills.

A case study to ponder, Laszlo Polgar (László Polgár - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) a psychologist who wanted to run an experiment about talent, actually recruited a wife and raised 3 daughters to be highly ranked chess players. He trained them from a very young age and Susan was olympic chess champion, Sofia is an international master, and Judit is an international grandmaster (by age 15!).

there is some data to noodle over, and doubters better produce statistical data showing the liklihood of 3 sisters being chess masters

Ok, out of those 3 girls which one is the best chess player? That one would have the most innate talent of the three.