Are you born with it?

[vfotog]

Talent and creativity are a technical ability. I agree I have no natural talent because it does not exist. I worked for every achievement I have earned, and its been a lot of hard work. How would you go aboue teaching someone engineering, my profession. Its not that you weed them out in kindergarden and say Oh that one has talent for it! No, it requires 4 years of very hard college work plus 5-10 years of industry experience to become "expert". This isnt something that is inborn, and its not something certain people have a knack for. Its 100% hard work and effort. If you havnt done it, then you probobly dont understand. I imagine you would get the same response from a doctor, laywer, research scientist, athlete, etc.

I am so adamant because I see a lot of people stiffling their chance to grow and achieve because of their own incorrect assumptions and conclusions based on heresay or old wives tale. People used to believe earth was the center of the universe too. If you can look at the data in a critical manner and then tell me there is proof talent is inborn......I am waiting with baited breath. All of the research I have read shows the exact oposite, to many researchers suprise.

Last week I visited an art gallery and talked with the owner. He was clearly enthralled by the work in his gallery and just gushed about it. He loved art and said it was his calling. When I asked if he did his own he said no, he didnt have the talent for it. Here is a man who clearly would get great great great fulfillment out of his life if he could learn to paint. But based on societal assumptions about talent he may never put forth the effort to learn because he thinks its pointless.

Thinking that everyone CAN get to the same place is not delusional, it is a scientific fact. Thinking that everyone WILL get to the same place, now that is delusional. But whats stopping them is not the inability to gain skill, its different life priorities etc.

Just so you know you could sing like Sills, just go to vocal coach Linda Septien and work hard.

wow. you have NO concept of what it takes in the arts whatsoever. no art or music educator is ever going to agree with you. I'm now embarrassed for you. Engineering isn't a "talent" like art or music, so your example is utterly irrelevant. silly, even. we're talking creativity. OTOH, an aptitude for math might be useful to become an engineer. To think logically might be nice but apparently isn't necessary in all cases. I know someone with dyscalculia. It's quite a stretch to think she could be an engineer. OTOH, she decided to take up the clarinet to be with her friends in the high school marching band. after one semester, not only did she make the band, she was co-teaching beginning instruments at the school. She wasn't a musician but a singer. The point is that she could ALWAYS sing. Before lessons. It didn't take years of work. I specifically mentioned Sills because she was performing professionally at the age of 4. She always had musical talent. Of course, she further developed her technique, but the gift, the voice, was already there. You've obviously never been in an art class because you don't seem to display any knowledge of creativity or artistic principles. If you are serious about photography, perhaps you should take one. Mastering the buttons on your camera won't ever make you an artist. It's just silly that you can't accept that some people have innate talent which displays itself even at a young age. It's so well documented. In the US, talent is clearly recognized by our government and educational system. In California, we have the Gifted and Talented Education Program (GATE). Other countries have gifted and talented programs too. So they're all wrong and you're right? uh huh.... :lmao:

Wow, you have no concept what you are talking about. I'm now seriously embarassed for you.

You may be correct in that the average engineer is not much of a creative type. However that is also true of the average architect, scientist and, yes, photographer. But, thank god, not all engineers are average and it is the creative ones that have moved us forward where engineering is used. Your response makes me think you do not have much of a chance in photography because you are so stuck in this little box of negativity...

Stop posting stupid responses and go read a few hundred books.


And by the way, GATE is the biggest joke. Why are we promoting GATE at the same time we are cutting funding for all art programs in HSs? And before you spew some more knowledge, let me tell you, I spend quite a few years fighting, at the national level, the cutting of spending in art education in our schools so don't you throw some BS at me.

Guess you didn't learn any manners though, huh? Calling me stupid and telling me not to post isn't exactly mature or civilized. Mr. Fuzz was saying engineering doesn't require any talent, just hard work. I have friends who are engineers; I agree totally that creativity is part of what makes a great engineer. Creativity is a good thing, and essential in the arts. well, duh. I pointed out that GATE exists cos he seems to think that the majority of the world, science, etc all support his position that there is no such thing as innate talent. Obviously, government arts and education programs refute that position. Part of GATE IS arts education. I do find it funny that you say you're an advocate for arts education while jumping on ME for saying there is artistic talent. When kids have artistic or musical talent, without arts education or programs like GATE, they don't have many options. I don't think it's negative to stick up for talented people that already are limited in their choices by the undervaluing of the arts. Judging me or my future and your perceived lack of promise because I don't agree with someone is just plain petty and misinformed. I have a lifetime spent in and around the arts: art, photography, music. Sorry you felt the need to take the low road.

 

[bennielou]

wow. you have NO concept of what it takes in the arts whatsoever. no art or music educator is ever going to agree with you. I'm now embarrassed for you. Engineering isn't a "talent" like art or music, so your example is utterly irrelevant. silly, even. we're talking creativity. OTOH, an aptitude for math might be useful to become an engineer. To think logically might be nice but apparently isn't necessary in all cases. I know someone with dyscalculia. It's quite a stretch to think she could be an engineer. OTOH, she decided to take up the clarinet to be with her friends in the high school marching band. after one semester, not only did she make the band, she was co-teaching beginning instruments at the school. She wasn't a musician but a singer. The point is that she could ALWAYS sing. Before lessons. It didn't take years of work. I specifically mentioned Sills because she was performing professionally at the age of 4. She always had musical talent. Of course, she further developed her technique, but the gift, the voice, was already there. You've obviously never been in an art class because you don't seem to display any knowledge of creativity or artistic principles. If you are serious about photography, perhaps you should take one. Mastering the buttons on your camera won't ever make you an artist. It's just silly that you can't accept that some people have innate talent which displays itself even at a young age. It's so well documented. In the US, talent is clearly recognized by our government and educational system. In California, we have the Gifted and Talented Education Program (GATE). Other countries have gifted and talented programs too. So they're all wrong and you're right? uh huh.... :lmao:

Wow, you have no concept what you are talking about. I'm now seriously embarassed for you.

You may be correct in that the average engineer is not much of a creative type. However that is also true of the average architect, scientist and, yes, photographer. But, thank god, not all engineers are average and it is the creative ones that have moved us forward where engineering is used. Your response makes me think you do not have much of a chance in photography because you are so stuck in this little box of negativity...

Stop posting stupid responses and go read a few hundred books.


And by the way, GATE is the biggest joke. Why are we promoting GATE at the same time we are cutting funding for all art programs in HSs? And before you spew some more knowledge, let me tell you, I spend quite a few years fighting, at the national level, the cutting of spending in art education in our schools so don't you throw some BS at me.

Guess you didn't learn any manners though, huh? Calling me stupid and telling me not to post isn't exactly mature or civilized. Mr. Fuzz was saying engineering doesn't require any talent, just hard work. I have friends who are engineers; I agree totally that creativity is part of what makes a great engineer. Creativity is a good thing, and essential in the arts. well, duh. I pointed out that GATE exists cos he seems to think that the majority of the world, science, etc all support his position that there is no such thing as innate talent. Obviously, government arts and education programs refute that position. Part of GATE IS arts education. I do find it funny that you say you're an advocate for arts education while jumping on ME for saying there is artistic talent. When kids have artistic or musical talent, without arts education or programs like GATE, they don't have many options. I don't think it's negative to stick up for talented people that already are limited in their choices by the undervaluing of the arts. Judging me or my future and your perceived lack of promise because I don't agree with someone is just plain petty and misinformed. I have a lifetime spent in and around the arts: art, photography, music. Sorry you felt the need to take the low road.

VFog, just where was your civility in your initial comment? THIS IS JUST A DISCUSSION. No one told you not to post. Post away. Just don't ask everyone to agree with every breath you take.

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Wait. You are citing the government as proof?

 

[vfotog]

(VFotog- I actally first read it VFog, and that was probably most correct, because your logic is beyond foggy.)

AGAIN! What a wonderful discussion!

Now to get into this whole engineering vs art thing, I'm going to disagree with you VFog. My husband is extremely methodical and technilogical, but he can shoot shots that make you cry. Most of my shooters have been from highly disciplined backgrounds, and they rock it. If they didn't I wouldn't hire them.

Now, do they see things the way I see them? No. And that is the beauty of it. They see things so differently that it's magic to me. While I see my world in whimsy, and leading lines, and facial expressions, they are seeing it more classically. And classics are classics for a reason.

And I agree that anyone can come from ANYWHERE and be a great photographer. Trailor shmalor. I've seen some wicked great photogs who grew up in the slums of India. So that whole arguement is bull****.

And you have to be trained from birth to be good at something? LOL. That is beyond nuts. I never owned a camera until my late 30s, and many of my fellows have the same experience. The one thing we all had in common was a love for arts and crafts, critters, and people. And we all used to be really good at imagination as kids. We dream very vividly. (I asked my photog friends after this thread started so it's a kind of weird informal study.).

and so you need to stoop to name calling too? beyond foggy? wow, guess petty is contagious. and really, we don't disagree. in your post after namecalling, you present a viewpoint that is entirely the opposite of what the "no inborn talent" folks are saying. Engineers can be creative, of course. But you can't be an engineer without years of training, whereas you can be an artist or singer without that. I don't see what the point of jumping on the bandwagon is when you're basically saying what I am. lol.

 

[vfotog]

VFog, just where was your civility in your initial comment? THIS IS JUST A DISCUSSION. No one told you not to post. Post away. Just don't ask everyone to agree with every breath you take.

wow, float from side to side and now join the bullys. apparently you missed where c.cloudwalker wrote: "Stop posting stupid responses and go read a few hundred books."

 

[bennielou]

(VFotog- I actally first read it VFog, and that was probably most correct, because your logic is beyond foggy.)

AGAIN! What a wonderful discussion!

Now to get into this whole engineering vs art thing, I'm going to disagree with you VFog. My husband is extremely methodical and technilogical, but he can shoot shots that make you cry. Most of my shooters have been from highly disciplined backgrounds, and they rock it. If they didn't I wouldn't hire them.

Now, do they see things the way I see them? No. And that is the beauty of it. They see things so differently that it's magic to me. While I see my world in whimsy, and leading lines, and facial expressions, they are seeing it more classically. And classics are classics for a reason.

And I agree that anyone can come from ANYWHERE and be a great photographer. Trailor shmalor. I've seen some wicked great photogs who grew up in the slums of India. So that whole arguement is bull****.

And you have to be trained from birth to be good at something? LOL. That is beyond nuts. I never owned a camera until my late 30s, and many of my fellows have the same experience. The one thing we all had in common was a love for arts and crafts, critters, and people. And we all used to be really good at imagination as kids. We dream very vividly. (I asked my photog friends after this thread started so it's a kind of weird informal study.).

and so you need to stoop to name calling too? beyond foggy? wow, guess petty is contagious. and really, we don't disagree. in your post after namecalling, you present a viewpoint that is entirely the opposite of what the "no inborn talent" folks are saying. Engineers can be creative, of course. But you can't be an engineer without years of training, whereas you can be an artist or singer without that. I don't see what the point of jumping on the bandwagon is when you're basically saying what I am. lol.

Ok Dfog, now you are pissing me off. This could have been a nice conversation, but you want to fight. So get ready to fight.

You don't think that artists spend years honing their craft? I might not have used a film type medium my whole life, but believe me, I have been working with my abilities for as long as I can remember. It might have been something I worked with my kids, doing a finger painting, but I was RIGHT THERE.

And don't get it twisted. I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU. Have I made that clear enough? That's why I started thinking of you as DFog in the first place.

I have degrees. Actually more than one. So don't take me for a dummy. And I could NEVER have learned what I know now in some class. And I've been to A LOT of classes.

You learn to be an artist from the moment you are born. Don't for one moment think that you need a peice of paper to confirm that. You CLIENTS with their WALLETS confirm that.

Just how frustrated are you?

 

[vfotog]

Wait. You are citing the government as proof?

well, Mr. J, it's clearly proof that it's not true that the majority of people, institutions, etc, agree that there's no such thing as talent. It's fine for someone to say that they don't believe in talent and innate abilities. They have the right to think that. But when it's misrepresented as some huge fact that is supported by the bulk of science, etc, then it's not so cool. btw, I rather like jewelry and I think it takes some talent and creativity to be a really good jeweler too.

 

[bennielou]

VFog, just where was your civility in your initial comment? THIS IS JUST A DISCUSSION. No one told you not to post. Post away. Just don't ask everyone to agree with every breath you take.

wow, float from side to side and now join the bullys. apparently you missed where c.cloudwalker wrote: "Stop posting stupid responses and go read a few hundred books."

Cloud has been my friend for years because we normally agree on things. Cloud told you like it is. You just don't agree. Stop taking everything as a personal attack.

 

[bennielou]

Wait. You are citing the government as proof?

well, Mr. J, it's clearly proof that it's not true that the majority of people, institutions, etc, agree that there's no such thing as talent. It's fine for someone to say that they don't believe in talent and innate abilities. They have the right to think that. But when it's misrepresented as some huge fact that is supported by the bulk of science, etc, then it's not so cool. btw, I rather like jewelry and I think it takes some talent and creativity to be a really good jeweler too.

Ok, I want to see these studies......

 

[Bitter Jeweler]

Could you cite the government to prove god exists, because the government trusts in god? It's printed on all the money, it must be true.


Sorry, citing what the government has determined to be "true" is not proof. The government is slow, stupid, and is always late.

 

[vfotog]

(VFotog- I actally first read it VFog, and that was probably most correct, because your logic is beyond foggy.)

AGAIN! What a wonderful discussion!

Now to get into this whole engineering vs art thing, I'm going to disagree with you VFog. My husband is extremely methodical and technilogical, but he can shoot shots that make you cry. Most of my shooters have been from highly disciplined backgrounds, and they rock it. If they didn't I wouldn't hire them.

Now, do they see things the way I see them? No. And that is the beauty of it. They see things so differently that it's magic to me. While I see my world in whimsy, and leading lines, and facial expressions, they are seeing it more classically. And classics are classics for a reason.

And I agree that anyone can come from ANYWHERE and be a great photographer. Trailor shmalor. I've seen some wicked great photogs who grew up in the slums of India. So that whole arguement is bull****.

And you have to be trained from birth to be good at something? LOL. That is beyond nuts. I never owned a camera until my late 30s, and many of my fellows have the same experience. The one thing we all had in common was a love for arts and crafts, critters, and people. And we all used to be really good at imagination as kids. We dream very vividly. (I asked my photog friends after this thread started so it's a kind of weird informal study.).

and so you need to stoop to name calling too? beyond foggy? wow, guess petty is contagious. and really, we don't disagree. in your post after namecalling, you present a viewpoint that is entirely the opposite of what the "no inborn talent" folks are saying. Engineers can be creative, of course. But you can't be an engineer without years of training, whereas you can be an artist or singer without that. I don't see what the point of jumping on the bandwagon is when you're basically saying what I am. lol.

Ok Dfog, now you are pissing me off. This could have been a nice conversation, but you want to fight. So get ready to fight.

You don't think that artists spend years honing their craft? I might not have used a film type medium my whole life, but believe me, I have been working with my abilities for as long as I can remember. It might have been something I worked with my kids, doing a finger painting, but I was RIGHT THERE.

And don't get it twisted. I DO NOT AGREE WITH YOU. Have I made that clear enough? That's why I started thinking of you as DFog in the first place.

I have degrees. Actually more than one. So don't take me for a dummy. And I could NEVER have learned what I know now in some class. And I've been to A LOT of classes.

You learn to be an artist from the moment you are born. Don't for one moment think that you need a peice of paper to confirm that. You CLIENTS with their WALLETS confirm that.

Just how frustrated are you?

huh? the name calling is sad. this is a discussion about creativity and whether it exists naturally or whether it is all learned. the "other side" says there is no innate talent so when you say you used your abilities, they say those abilities don't exist. you say you've learned a lot that wasn't in a class. well, they say it's all work, not ability or talent. I say that people have those "abilities" which they further develop. the anti-talent crowd says there is no natural talent at all. you seem to be saying you have natural abilities, from the moment you're born. that's totally the opposite of what spacefuzz and co. are saying.

 

[vfotog]

VFog, just where was your civility in your initial comment? THIS IS JUST A DISCUSSION. No one told you not to post. Post away. Just don't ask everyone to agree with every breath you take.

wow, float from side to side and now join the bullys. apparently you missed where c.cloudwalker wrote: "Stop posting stupid responses and go read a few hundred books."

Cloud has been my friend for years because we normally agree on things. Cloud told you like it is. You just don't agree. Stop taking everything as a personal attack.

calling people stupid, or rude little names, or saying they have no future in photography are personal attacks. which you have participated in. be honest enough to admit that.

 

[vfotog]

Could you cite the government to prove god exists, because the government trusts in god? It's printed on all the money, it must be true.


Sorry, citing what the government has determined to be "true" is not proof. The government is slow, stupid, and is always late.

so is this fighting for the sake of it day or let's gang up on one person day? I notice that originally most of the people in this thread were in support of the idea of talent and spacefuzz took over the thread and they all got chased away. I stood up to him and now I get bullied?

did I say anything about the government determining anything to be true? no. but space was misrepresenting his position as the predominant one. clearly, it's not the position of governments or educational institutions. does that mean you all want to dismantle all the arts programs and schools, cos talent is a given there?

 

[bennielou]

Oh good god. Pick your panties off the floor. JUST HAVE A DISCUSSION. You can have your own opinion, and it's ok. Someone might disagree with you, and I promise you won't die. Someone might actually call you DFog. And you won't die from that either.

 

[spacefuzz]

vfotog you are being quite rude. You are more than capable of disagreeing with me, but you didnt have to say that because I share a different opinion I am obviously a terrible photographer. Also at some point you said you had a friend who has (I think you meant) dyslexia, and so couldnt be an engineer. I have dyslexia, and got my engineering degree, just fyi. If I had followed my high school teachers advice I would have a much less fulfilling life.

I would be curious to see your slew of studies stating that talent is real, but make sure they are recent (aka past 15 years). If you have an opinion based on more than heresay, I would love to start a lively discussion comparing the validity of several studies.
And I agree with bitter in that you cant take what the government says at face value. *shudder* high school curriculums for example.