Could use some white balance advice

[TCampbell]

If you use RAW, white balance is not applied... at which point it doesn't matter what white balance you set (most cameras embed the white balance setting in the image data, but will not actually apply the correction. Post processing software could read that and either apply it or choose to ignore it. But the point is, once you have a RAW, what happens to the image as it's being processed is now up to you.)

A gray card is going to provide the most accurate white balance because it provides a subject which is guaranteed to be color neutral (it has a perfectly balanced mix of cyan, blue, and magenta to create "gray"). Consequently, since the camera (or post processing software) is designed to presume the gray subject is, in fact, perfectly color neutral, then any color cast detected in it must have come from the light source and not the material itself. Assuming that the light illuminating the gray card is the SAME light illuminating everything else in your scene (or at least everything you care about in your scene), it allows the computer to neutralize the color cast.

This assumes that you want a neutral color cast. The color temperature of the sun at mid day and the color temperature of the sun at sunset are not the same... the atmosphere filters out more blues and the sun becomes more golden/orange. You may actually WANT to capture the "golden" cast. It's a key quality of a sunset shot in that everything is warmed by the golden color cast. If you're shooting a candlelight scene, the same would apply. So you don't always want to neutralize it.

I do carry a gray card. I do not always use it. I also have an incident meter in my bag which, again, I do not always use.

As Gav says... it can slow you down and sometimes it's not essential. As indicated above, sometimes the non-neutral color cast created by the light is actually the very thing you WANT to capture and using white balance to neutralize the color cast would ruin the shot. But... if you're shooting product photography THOU SHALT USE A GRAY CARD and ONLY a gray card. Thou shalt not use anything else. Neither shalt thou skip using any color balance and "wing it" by correcting the image on the computer with no objectively measured reference. I am not merciful when I ordering clothing or other products based on color and the color isn't right. Anyone in that industry should know better. The steps necessary to perform a "color managed workflow" are well-understood.

 

[paigew]

I think what WB mode you use also has a lot to do with what you shoot. For example wb is going to be a lot easier to adjust in post processing on a landscape shot than say...a backlit portait. I 99% of the time shoot people and AWB just isn't good with skin tones. And there isn't always a neutral color in the frame for you to sample from later.

 

[Gavjenks]

I think what WB mode you use also has a lot to do with what you shoot. For example wb is going to be a lot easier to adjust in post processing on a landscape shot than say...a backlit portait. I 99% of the time shoot people and AWB just isn't good with skin tones. And there isn't always a neutral color in the frame for you to sample from later.

There aren't just two options, though. It's not just
A) AWB mode or
B) gray card and custom WB mode

There is a third option
C) gray card in one frame and AWB mode



Then, there IS always a neutral color in the frame for you to sample from later. But you still save time and don't miss shots when stuff is happening. (Just snap one per lighting condition change)

 

[Derrel]

Set the WB at daylight using the Fine Weather/SUnny/Daylight (depends on the brand of camera), and you'll KEEP that beautiful, golden sunset light, or that lovely pinkish sunrise light. THat way the JPEGs and the image previews with most any software will look beautiful.

OR, let the camera run in AUTO white balance, and watch as it filters out the beautiful "colored light" and makes the sublime sunrise or sunset look like crap.

If you shoot a new, modern Nikon (D2x or newer), keep in mind that Nikon encrypts all white balance data, and ONLY Nikon-brand software products can read the actual white balance. ALL, as in ALL OTHER brands of software do a best-guess interpretation, and many s/w apps are 700 to 1,000 degrees Kelvin off from what will be the optimal, WB value, but can also easily be off by anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 degrees K from what might look best for a creative look that does NOT "white balance away" beautiful light.

One day in 2012, Majeed and I shot at Silver Falls State Park, under cloudy skies in fairly deep canyons lighted by ONLY sky-light,with no sunshine. The verdant springtime greens were amazingly rich. Adobe's Lightroom was about 5,000 degrees below the 10,000K setting that made my D3x NEF files look optimal and which made the greens look "right".

Bottom line: if you shoot a modern Nikon, Lightroom's ability to guess at Nikon's encrypted white balance data is often off, easily, by 1,000 degrees Kelvin, but more-typically, by 600 to 700 degrees.

 

[pixmedic]

Set the WB at daylight using the Fine Weather/SUnny/Daylight (depends on the brand of camera), and you'll KEEP that beautiful, golden sunset light, or that lovely pinkish sunrise light. THat way the JPEGs and the image previews with most any software will look beautiful.

OR, let the camera run in AUTO white balance, and watch as it filters out the beautiful "colored light" and makes the sublime sunrise or sunset look like crap.

If you shoot a new, modern Nikon (D2x or newer), keep in mind that Nikon encrypts all white balance data, and ONLY Nikon-brand software products can read the actual white balance. ALL, as in ALL OTHER brands of software do a best-guess interpretation, and many s/w apps are 700 to 1,000 degrees Kelvin off from what will be the optimal, WB value, but can also easily be off by anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 degrees K from what might look best for a creative look that does NOT "white balance away" beautiful light.

One day in 2012, Majeed and I shot at Silver Falls State Park, under cloudy skies in fairly deep canyons lighted by ONLY sky-light,with no sunshine. The verdant springtime greens were amazingly rich. Adobe's Lightroom was about 5,000 degrees below the 10,000K setting that made my D3x NEF files look optimal and which made the greens look "right".

Bottom line: if you shoot a modern Nikon, Lightroom's ability to guess at Nikon's encrypted white balance data is often off, easily, by 1,000 degrees Kelvin, but more-typically, by 600 to 700 degrees.

So....
If LR is off by that amount, can you not just open the raw file in LR and adjust it manually to where you want it? Or is that a problem only if you are shooting in jpeg?

 

[Braineack]

I adjust mine in post arbitrarily untill I think it looks good; couldn't give a flying monkey if it was accurate or not, so long at it made it pleasing.

 

[Gavjenks]

If you shoot a new, modern Nikon (D2x or newer), keep in mind that Nikon encrypts all white balance data, and ONLY Nikon-brand software products can read the actual white balance. ALL, as in ALL OTHER brands of software do a best-guess interpretation, and many s/w apps are 700 to 1,000 degrees Kelvin off from what will be the optimal, WB value, but can also easily be off by anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000 degrees K from what might look best for a creative look that does NOT "white balance away" beautiful light.

For a beautiful sunset look, there IS no correct answer, though.

Thus, you're just adjusting by eye anyway, so it shouldn't matter at all if the WB information is encrypted or if it's 700 degrees out of register, or whatever. You would just simply move the slider 700 more degrees before you got to the same point where, by eye, you artistically think the sunset looks the most beautiful.

Same goes for a technical shot where you want perfect color, and have a gray card frame you snapped (in any of the static WB modes). Doesn't matter if the camera lies to you, you just eyedropper it in photoshop and adjust ratios of colors accordingly to make the card gray, or whatever tool you prefer.



It's like saying "OH NO! The grocery store labeled this clear plastic carton of blueberries as strawberries instead. How will we ever get the right fruit for our recipe?!" Well, you can just look at the actual contents still, so the label lying to you doesn't really matter (setting aside the issue that it's probably a pretty sketchy fruit company...)

 

[paigew]

I think what WB mode you use also has a lot to do with what you shoot. For example wb is going to be a lot easier to adjust in post processing on a landscape shot than say...a backlit portait. I 99% of the time shoot people and AWB just isn't good with skin tones. And there isn't always a neutral color in the frame for you to sample from later.

There aren't just two options, though. It's not just
A) AWB mode or
B) gray card and custom WB mode

There is a third option
C) gray card in one frame and AWB mode



Then, there IS always a neutral color in the frame for you to sample from later. But you still save time and don't miss shots when stuff is happening. (Just snap one per lighting condition change)

Well to be fair, there are way more than three options And I use them all. But if we are talking how you get optimal results it would be to do it right in camera. Anyway, a photo taken with far too cool/warm wb will often have exposure issues and the quality will NOT be the same.

Also, I don't miss things due to getting a cwb. Practice makes perfect

 

[pixmedic]

You have to be pretty far off on wb for it to be affecting exposure to any serious degree. I almost always shoot AWB and I've never had the WB so far off that it screwed up my exposure. 99% of the time I only need very minimal tweaking in LR. Since I shoot raw all the time, I have to open the file in LR or PS anyway...The time tweaking the WB to where I want it is negligible.

There's so many different ways to deal with WB...Just find one that works best for you and go for it. Its not like you can tell how someone did their WB by looking at the photo.

 

[Ysarex86 80]

You have to be pretty far off on wb for it to be affecting exposure to any serious degree. I almost always shoot AWB and I've never had the WB so far off that it screwed up my exposure. 99% of the time I only need very minimal tweaking in LR. Since I shoot raw all the time, I have to open the file in LR or PS anyway...The time tweaking the WB to where I want it is negligible.

There's so many different ways to deal with WB...Just find one that works best for you and go for it. Its not like you can tell how someone did their WB by looking at the photo.

The WB setting (auto or not) has no effect on the raw file and so no effect on exposure of the raw file. However it certainly does effect how the camera JPEG engine renders the final RGB photo and AWB is frequently off enough to cause the camera JPEG processing software to clip a color channel or two and render the final JPEG seriously bleeped up.

Until I screamed loud enough and long enough last month I was getting this every week from my students. Nice well exposed sunny day blue sky landscapes with the blue channel in the JPEG clipped because of the AWB screw-up. Trying to repair white balance in a camera JPEG isn't too smart but may be doable. Repairing a clipped color channel is another matter. Camera JPEGs plus AWB is asking for trouble.

Joe

 

[Derrel]

So....
If LR is off by that amount, can you not just open the raw file in LR and adjust it manually to where you want it? Or is that a problem only if you are shooting in jpeg?

Yeah, you pretty much want to adjust the White Balance to the way you wish the images to look. I shoot RAW + JPEG fine, medium-sized most of the time, and set the WB by hand using the Kelvin button...one press with the left thumb, and a few clicks withe the control wheel, and I can get the WB I WANT, in-camera.

When I shoot with un-coated flashtubes, I set 5,400 degrees Kelvin. When I shoot with my old, yellowed umbrellas, I shoot at 4,800. WIth my newer 202VF flashes that have coated tubes, I dial in 5,000 degrees Kelvin, so the preview JPEG files look good.

To me, the in-camera, sharpened, tone-curved JPEG files are the "proofs". They are ready to go as soon as they are shot.

When shooting a lot of flash photos, I think AUTO white balance is a poor choice.

 

[harmonica]

To the OP, you said you have a Nikon lens, so I am guessing you have a Nikon camera. A lot of Nikon's have the ability to dial in the Kelvin temperature manually. Can you do that? I like it better than a grey card, as it's just easier, and you don't have to get a card.

Being able to dial a K setting kind of implies one knows the number to being with. Color temp meters are rather pricey.

Not necessarily. You can tell by looking at the monitor or viewscreen, if the light is white or not. Or you can dial it until you get a satisfactory looking result. I always dial it until it looks the most white, and go with that. Or if I want a cool or warm tone, I will go with a different temperature. You also don't need a color temperature meter if you can memorize a good amount of color temperatures throughout the day, as well as looking at the color in camera. Is this a bad way of doing it?

"Looking at the monitor on the camera is about the worst way to set white balance."

Why is it the worst way?

 

[weepete]

Because your LCD screen is not calibrated, it can be well off and you'd never know. It's like using it to judge exposure, totally useless.

 

[480sparky41 40]

Why is it the worst way?

There's been documented cases of monitors being 'off-color' right from the factory. If they can start off bad, who'se to say it's providing an accurate color rendition.

I use the image in my monitor to check the following: Composition, focus,........ Hmmmm. That's about it.

 

[Ysarex86 80]

Why is it the worst way?

There's been documented cases of monitors being 'off-color' right from the factory. If they can start off bad, who'se to say it's providing an accurate color rendition.

I use the image in my monitor to check the following: Composition, focus,........ Hmmmm. That's about it.

Agreed. Using a camera LCD or EVF to judge anything other than composition and focus is sloppy practice that leads to sloppy photos. In addition to the near assurance that the color is off the changing ambient light conditions makes trying to judge exposure a big mistake.

Joe