"Do you have any deals..."

[nycphotography]

"Go out of business money" is ALSO "charging more than the customers are willing to pay".

Me, I would never presume to know what someone's market value is. Maybe she can get more. Lot's more. But based on the OP, it looks like the market value for her time is currently much lower than you presume to know it is.

Maybe, through building a business, and through marketing, and through developing sales skills, her time will soon be worth more than this. Who knows.

But I will absolutely stand pat on my assertion that in a business where you probably don't need to invest more than $10k in equipment (additional to what you already have as a hobby) to get started, where you probably already have a computer you can use, where you can get by with whatever beater car you already have or can pick up cheap, and where you can work out of your house or apartment at least to get started... if you can't live on 90k (2000 hours times $50/hr less 10k in equipment) a year gross, then you need to rethink your expense structure. Or go back to a 9 to 5 job.

I never said that's all YOU are worth. I'm just saying that as someone starting a small business, if they think they need to make more than that getting started, then they are probably setting themselves up to fail. I'm not talking about the ivy league MBA's with financial backing here. I'm taking the average American's who want to have a small business rather than a job.

 

[amolitor]

So nycphotography is talking about total hours.

I wonder whether charlie's talking about total hours or shooting hours? It makes somewhere between a factor of 2x and 10x difference. Which would be why it's a good idea to get it sorted before the argument, rather than after.

 

[tirediron]

Are you saying that $100 isn't a bit on the low side, or are you saying that you are pretty successful at talking clients up from a $100 budget to something a little more workable?

Neither... sort of. Yes, $100 does seem a little on the low side to me, but I have no idea what jowen's costs are. For instance, my one-hour, six high-res file package prices out at $175. Based on my CODB calculations, it's more like $155-160 for two hours I budget for that job. Now, if I moved just 40 miles east to Vancouver, I would likely have to increase my prices by 20-25% due to the significantly higher costs there.

What I am saying is that when you (1) explain to people WHY the work costs what it does, and (2) give them a little bonus, they're usually much more accepting of the price. I am not a fan of up-selling. I dislike it when vendors try and do it to me, and therefore, I don't do it to others. I do explain limitations to clients, but that's it.

 

[jwbryson1]

For $100? All I can do is hang up the phone, cuz I'm already losing money.

Exactly. This would be my response. I would do NOTHING for $100. $100? What a ridiculous "client." Stop selling yourself short on foolish requests like that.

Why is it ridiculous?

Let me be clear -- what I find "ridiculous" is spending much time at all doing anything for a measly $100 because when all the dust settles you've done too much work for the pay you receive. When you add up the time involved in (1) obtaining the client through advertising, sales calls, etc., (2) discussing the details of the engagement, (3) reaching the location of the engagement, (4) taking the photos, (5) returning to your shop, (6) processing the photos, (7) delivering the photos, (8) spending time following up with the client, etc., you've wasted way more than $100 worth of your time.

I am not a professional photographer, but if I were, I would not chase engagements of this size. I think they are a waste of time and energy. You are welcome to disagree, but that's my $0.02.

 

[tirediron]

Exactly. This would be my response. I would do NOTHING for $100. $100? What a ridiculous "client." Stop selling yourself short on foolish requests like that.

Why is it ridiculous?

Let me be clear -- what I find "ridiculous" is spending much time at all doing anything for a measly $100 because when all the dust settles you've done too much work for the pay you receive. When you add up the time involved in (1) obtaining the client through advertising, sales calls, etc., (2) discussing the details of the engagement, (3) reaching the location of the engagement, (4) taking the photos, (5) returning to your shop, (6) processing the photos, (7) delivering the photos, (8) spending time following up with the client, etc., you've wasted way more than $100 worth of your time.

I am not a professional photographer, but if I were, I would not chase engagements of this size. I think they are a waste of time and energy. You are welcome to disagree, but that's my $0.02.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but my question was actually meant to be, "Why is it ridiculous for the client to think that $100 is reasonable for this work?" Hence the "explain it to them" post.

 

[Derrel]

We cannot all be lawyers, billing people in desperate need from $175 to $300 an hour for services. It must be sweet to be able to bill clients $95 for dictating a letter, or $250 for sending some papers to the courthouse via courier service.

 

[jwbryson1]

We cannot all be lawyers, billing people in desperate need from $175 to $300 an hour for services.

Or $425 per hour.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I still think that it makes sense for a professional photographer to set a "floor" on the work they will do. Chasing $100 deals all day won't pay the bills. Chasing $5,000+ deals could.

 

[frommrstomommy]

lol from someone not currently making a dime.. id welcome a $100 bill in my tip jar. haha

 

[tirediron]

We cannot all be lawyers, billing people in desperate need from $175 to $300 an hour for services. It must be sweet to be able to bill clients $95 for dictating a letter, or $250 for sending some papers to the courthouse via courier service.

My personal favorite is the .50 - .75/sheet for photocopying! I'd love to be able to bill out with a 10,000% mark-up!

 

[amolitor]

There's plenty of businesses in which a transaction size of $100 can be made to work. I'm not convinced that bespoke photography is one of them, and it certainly requires a massive amount of efficiency, AND a substantial sales and marketing effort.

Even as a meaningful hobby, you're going to need say 100 transactions a year. Less than that and you're really just making a pro-forma charge to your friends, and not trying to "make money" per se. As a viable business that can pay your mortgage you're looking at something like an 700-1000 deal/year bogey. That's 4-5 deals EVERY DAY, which requires some serious scale, which is gonna be a real hassle as a sole practitioner. You can probably make it work but your business is going to have some pretty weird characteristics. This has nothing to do with photography and everything to do with "sole practitioner".

$100 deals make sense as a part of a mix of deal sizes, IF and ONLY IF they will translate into other, larger deals.

 

[jwbryson1]

There's plenty of businesses in which a transaction size of $100 can be made to work. I'm not convinced that bespoke photography is one of them, and it certainly requires a massive amount of efficiency, AND a substantial sales and marketing effort.

Even as a meaningful hobby, you're going to need say 100 transactions a year. Less than that and you're really just making a pro-forma charge to your friends, and not trying to "make money" per se. As a viable business that can pay your mortgage you're looking at something like an 700-1000 deal/year bogey. That's 4-5 deals EVERY DAY, which requires some serious scale, which is gonna be a real hassle as a sole practitioner. You can probably make it work but your business is going to have some pretty weird characteristics. This has nothing to do with photography and everything to do with "sole practitioner".

$100 deals make sense as a part of a mix of deal sizes, IF and ONLY IF they will translate into other, larger deals.

Amolitor makes the case better than me. He hit the nail on the head.

 

[Derrel]

Jess needs a good $5,000 package. It'll be a good down-sell from the $7,500 package she has. That oughtta' satisfy the budget conscious DC legal eagles looking to beat somebody out of a few k in service fees.

 

[amolitor]

Did you just close the deal and buy the last company in America with a fat juicy pension plan? Do you want to celebrate?

Consider our Cigars, Limos, and Strippers photo package! Party like a rock star all night long, and take home a huge full color photo book with ALL the action if you know what I mean! Today ONLY, $85,000, down from our regular $95,000!

 

[jwbryson1]

Did you just close the deal and buy the last company in America with a fat juicy pension plan? Do you want to celebrate?

Consider our Cigars, Limos, and Strippers photo package! Party like a rock star all night long, and take home a huge full color photo book with ALL the action if you know what I mean! Today ONLY, $85,000, down from our regular $95,000!

BYOB?!

 

[tirediron]

Did you just close the deal and buy the last company in America with a fat juicy pension plan? Do you want to celebrate?

Consider our Cigars, Limos, and Strippers photo package! Party like a rock star all night long, and take home a huge full color photo book with ALL the action if you know what I mean! Today ONLY, $85,000, down from our regular $95,000!

BYOB?!

Booze?
Blonde?
Blow-up doll?